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lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter)
lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
11/5/21 6:45 a.m.

We built our house 7 years ago and opted for a HUGE wood front door. Maybe not the greatest choice, but she likes it so we have it. It was originally stained and sealed(Sikkens), but has faded badly over time. I need to restain and reseal it, but on two of the horizontal surfaces the wood seems to be extremely "dry". I assume it's because that's the spots where moisture can settle and because it faces due east. I've been told that the morning sun is the culprit.

 

For those who have woodworking or wood finishing experience, is there any product that I can apply to those dry areas to rejuvenate or remoisten the wood? After that I need to restain, then reseal it. I'll ask more questions later. I can build "stuff" out of metal, stone or wood, but when it comes to refinishing wood, I have no experience.

 

How much the door has faded. Original color on the edge where it seals.

 

Door where you can see the 2 areas of concern, the horizontal area by the handle and toward the bottom.

 

Dry area in question.

11GTCS
11GTCS Dork
11/5/21 7:21 a.m.

That's an awesome front door.   Natural front doors and boat brightwork have a lot in common, I have boats with brightwork so here's my experience:

Sun / UV light will eventually break down even the best products, to bring it back from where it is now you'll need to go back to bare wood in my opinion.  Pull the door, put it on some horses and use a decent sander with say 100 grit to start.  Chemical strippers are an option but they use some nasty stuff and in my experience the dry finish will come off pretty quickly with sanding anyway.  Once you have the finish off, keep moving up in grit (150 and then 220) until you have the wood smooth.   Stain as needed to get the color you want and let it soak in / rub off the excess and let it dry.  Sometimes it takes a couple of coats of stain to get the color right.   Once the stain has dried I've had good luck with Sikkens Cetol on teak and mahogany in the boat.   There are a couple of different versions, I prefer the clear type as their standard finish is tinted and is a bit orange in color.   Both versions are available in satin and gloss, those tend to be personal preferences.  I'd recommend at least two coats of the Cetol to be sure you've got a durable finish.

It's a bit of work to strip and refinish, the good news is I've found Cetol to be pretty durable and if you do a wet sand / maintenance coat it holds up really well compared to standard varnish.   It should last a couple of years before you need to do a maintenance coat and even then way less work than stripping all the way back.

lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter)
lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
11/5/21 7:48 a.m.

I just contacted the guy who originally stained the door. He said that he "tinted" the Sikkens with some stain to get rid of the yellow/orange tint and darken the wood a bit.

 

This is what I need to get it back to. Looks like I'll be breaking out the palm sanded and giving it a go. Wish me luck........

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/5/21 7:48 a.m.

What did you do to the door to make it angry? 

I'll see myself out. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa PowerDork
11/5/21 7:49 a.m.

I'll second the UV destroys anything.   Also, anything you use as any kind of "hard" coating (like what is on there now) will fail.  Wood breathes, it absorbs and releases moisture and as it does it swells and shrinks enough to cause microfractures all over any coating and then more moisture gets in behind the coating and causes it to flake off

I can check with Dad, he used to do this kind of thing professionally.  Whatever method he recommends will get great results that last, but you might be without your door for a couple days while you apply multiple coats.

lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter)
lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
11/5/21 7:56 a.m.
Whatever method he recommends will get great results that last, but you might be without your door for a couple days while you apply multiple coats.

Being without the door isn't going to happen at this point in the year. It was 21* this morning so I can steal a few hours in the afternoon, but that's about it.

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
11/5/21 8:10 a.m.

You will need to sand it down, but don't re stain it. Use wood oil. Odies is a good brand, and all natural. Much easier, and cleaner. When it starts to show sun damage again, apply more. 
No sanding needed ever again, just a new coat every few years, in place. 

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
11/5/21 9:18 a.m.

I'd wait until spring or at least a day where the temps are going to be over 55 or so during the time you're applying finish.  Otherwise it's going to be too cold to get decent results.  This also gives you time to plan.

I have a sort of experiment coming up with different satin top finishes with added gel stain about to happen on my house project, I'll let you know how that goes.  Might be a way to do both at once for your first coat and then you can clear over it once a week or so and maybe do it installed.  Probably best to sand on it when you start though so the finish is even and color comes out decently.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa PowerDork
11/5/21 9:21 a.m.
lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter) said:
Whatever method he recommends will get great results that last, but you might be without your door for a couple days while you apply multiple coats.

Being without the door isn't going to happen at this point in the year. It was 21* this morning so I can steal a few hours in the afternoon, but that's about it.

You wouldn't want to do any of this work in the cold anyways, even the other stuff everyone else is offering.  This is a spring or summer project for sure.

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
11/5/21 9:34 a.m.

Forget clear finishes if you want tings to last that are exposed to sun. 2 mane 3 years at most is all you can expect.  
    The easiest way is to sand off the old finish. But for Dog's sake  don't start with 100 grit!  Maybe if it's real thick 150 then  220 followed by 300. Stain the color you want. And then a good marine varnish.  Every summer probably in Augustwhen there hasn't been rain for a couple of weeks  give it a light sanding with 300 grit paper.  And put a new coat  of varnish on. Once the tint gets light strip it back again and start over. 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
11/5/21 10:20 a.m.

This is 100% a warm weather project. 

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
11/5/21 10:28 a.m.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

I know you're an avid woodworker so I trust your opinion, but my painter friend told me not to use wood oil products on surfaces you're likely to come in contact with as they would stain your clothes and get oil on your hands since it never dries. For example, he didn't want to oil an outdoor table or chairs. He said a deck was good with oil since you just walk on it. A door would be somewhere between the two I guess. Do you agree with him?

I used spar urethane on my wood front door at the old house and it held up well but I've not seen it for years. Anything is going to need maintenance, so if you get a few years out of it you're doing well.

Justjim75
Justjim75 SuperDork
11/5/21 10:45 a.m.

You don't have to sand the whole door just yet, look at a product called Polyshades, it's tinted polyurethane so you can smooth the area a bit and blend the new poly with the old finish by using multiple coats until the shade is correct.  I buy a lighter color than the finished door because it gets darker with more coats.  After you get the color how you like it, recoat the whole door and spend the other 3/4s of your weekend doing car stuff.

I was self employed doing home improvement and remodeling for almost 15 years.  

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
11/5/21 12:55 p.m.
dculberson said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

I know you're an avid woodworker so I trust your opinion, but my painter friend told me not to use wood oil products on surfaces you're likely to come in contact with as they would stain your clothes and get oil on your hands since it never dries. For example, he didn't want to oil an outdoor table or chairs. He said a deck was good with oil since you just walk on it. A door would be somewhere between the two I guess. Do you agree with him?

I used spar urethane on my wood front door at the old house and it held up well but I've not seen it for years. Anything is going to need maintenance, so if you get a few years out of it you're doing well.

It's used on kitchen islands, wooden bowls, and the desk I'm typing this on. Never any issues. Maybe he meant oil based urathane? No clue. 
I use this stuff as it's the best I've found. https://www.odiesoil.com
 

I just put some epoxy in the slabs I'm using to build a new desk, I'll be sanding and finishing next week, I'll have photos of the process in the "show us something you've built thread" when I do  

 

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
11/5/21 1:27 p.m.

Oil based polyurethane is used *everywhere*.  That's... something got lost in communication or wasn't completely explained or understood about oil based products.  Not trying to be offensive, just... no.

Polyshades is exactly what I'm trying to emulate with my project but I want to use the gel stain I already have mixed (mix of two different stains to get the color I want).  Products are slightly different but agreed on this being a way to go.  If a mix of these works and then a second just-clear goes over it then there would be plenty of product thickness to provide protection.

Frenchy's suggestion of marine varnish might be a good route as well.  These products could be tinted using stain or concentrated tint for some color control.  To my knowledge these varnishes don't have much color on their own, though.  I've not used any myself so reading and input from more folks would be good.

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
11/5/21 1:47 p.m.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

No not oil based urethane but the oil that soaks into the wood type finish, the type that doesn't dry or cure. The most common of which is maybe Thompson's Water Seal. I know that's like the Walmart of oil products just using it as an example. 

02Pilot
02Pilot UberDork
11/5/21 2:00 p.m.

No idea how it would hold up to prolonged UV, but I've done a lot of stuff with boiled linseed oil - furniture, rifle stocks - and been happy with the results. Once you get the old surface finish off, rub it in with 0000 steel wool. Do a few coats a day apart. When it starts to fade, just do another coat - no sanding needed. Dries completely, seals out moisture.

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
11/5/21 2:03 p.m.

In reply to dculberson :

Ok, that's why I was confused on what he was trying to say. Stuff like Thompson's is much different than wood finishing oils, different products for different uses. I had people recommend against oily based poly for some stuff claiming it's not "food safe" which is wrong (guess what most bar tops are).

Justjim75
Justjim75 SuperDork
11/6/21 5:11 p.m.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

Oil based polyurethane is used *everywhere*.  That's... something got lost in communication or wasn't completely explained or understood about oil based products.  Not trying to be offensive, just... no.

Polyshades is exactly what I'm trying to emulate with my project but I want to use the gel stain I already have mixed (mix of two different stains to get the color I want).  Products are slightly different but agreed on this being a way to go.  If a mix of these works and then a second just-clear goes over it then there would be plenty of product thickness to provide protection.

Frenchy's suggestion of marine varnish might be a good route as well.  These products could be tinted using stain or concentrated tint for some color control.  To my knowledge these varnishes don't have much color on their own, though.  I've not used any myself so reading and input from more folks would be good.

This is what I've done with good results.  The key is blending the color, but the polyshades makes that easier and yes, a full top coat to make the sheen even on the whole door

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
11/6/21 5:25 p.m.

I rarely do wood work but I've been impressed by Danish Oil when we refinished a whole atrium.

Asas_Dad
Asas_Dad New Reader
11/6/21 11:08 p.m.

Clear Finishes on Exterior Wood:

This question raises its head on a regular basis, by homeowners, wooden boat owners, anyone who wants to show off the grain in a pretty piece of wood that lives outdoors. There’s not a good answer.

In the photos I see three distinct problems: fading of the stain, bleaching of the wood, degradation of the previous varnish. All are light-induced; the higher the energy of the light (UV), the faster, more severe the damage. I have personally seen an unpainted south-facing wooden window frame inside an 18th century house in Colonial Williamsburg that was so continuously blasted by the sun through the glass that the wood itself was eroded, looked like driftwood.

My son, Mr Asa, is correct; wood continues to expand and contract in response to humidity cycling, if not forever, at least until the cells of it are degraded to non-structural. Wooden artifacts found in Pharaohs' tombs, 4,000 years old, have been shown to change dimension due to humidity, by even as little as the moisture breathed out by visitors in the tombs. The only way to prevent it is to enclose the wood in a sealed case. A finish coating won’t do that; all are to some extent permeable to moisture. Forest Products Laboratory tested numerous coatings for wood, found that the one that came the closest to 100% impermeability was two coats of dipped molten paraffin. Not a look you want for your door.

Most wood stains have very little actual pigment (finely-ground earth minerals) in them. The minerals are that which will resist fading. Dyes (color that penetrates the cells of the wood) fade even faster. The varnish will go simultaneously; the sun blasts apart the molecules that give it integrity. That can be seen in the third photo lotusseven7 sent; see the lifting of the varnish atop the molding over the lock rail? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photo-oxidation_of_polymers#Prevention The natural color of the wood will fade very quickly when any protection is gone.

As for drying oils, any that is pressed from the seed or flesh of a plant will eventually cross-link as it dries, giving a hard(ish) coating. Then it will continue to oxidize as it ages, will eventually fail. The only difference between tung, walnut, and linseed is how quickly it happens. Linseed goes the fastest. Who among us has not seen a walnut gunstock that has been lovingly oiled with linseed every year, that has turned black and gummy? And get this: the same FPL study of wood coatings showed that degraded linseed oil actually became hygroscopic, meaning it absorbed moisture.

pres589 (djronnebaum) mentioned oil-based polyurethane. Most people don’t understand that ALL alkyd urethanes are oil-based. The difference between them and traditional, older oil varnishes is that alkyd resin has replaced what used to be a natural (plant) resins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkyd

The greatest problem I see with asking such advice is that the recommendations you get are only for product names. The people making them may have some experience with that product, but no knowledge of what is in it, much less its aging characteristics. For example, Thompson’s Water Seal used to be beeswax dissolved in a hydrocarbon; I have no idea what’s in it now. This is not a criticism; it’s very difficult to find the ingredients of a varnish. I have done a few entry doors myself, in most cases my information was limited to the manufacturer’s claims.

So we’re wanting a finish coating that moves in concert with the wood, doesn’t crack from the movement or from age, blocks ultraviolet to prevent fading and wood damage. The short answer? Such a finish doesn’t exist. At least not yet.

Lotusseven7, you have the second-best orientation of your front door. Best would be north-facing, no direct sun. But even indirect sunlight will eventually break down a finish.

The best exterior finish I have ever seen was on a boat at the Antique Outboard meet with mahogany bow deck and seating furniture. I asked the owner what it was; he said it was four coats of a polyurethane (that he named, the brand name meant nothing to me) to build thickness, wet-sanded level and sprayed with two coats of automotive clear topcoat. (But after meeting him, I’m sure that boat never spent even one night outdoors, uncovered.)

The key is the automotive topcoat. For those of you that don’t already know, car paint color is no longer an enamel, it’s a seriously underbound color pigment followed by two coats of clear. The clear is a urethane, but it’s catalyzed (usually with an isocyanate hardener – wear a respirator!), and incorporates ultraviolet stabilizers to slow its breakdown. We’ve all seen older cars that the clear coat has failed; the underlying color is very quickly lost. Those ultraviolet inhibitors are Hindered Amine Light Stabilizers (HALS) and UV Absorbers (UVA). They, too have a limited lifespan, but it’s a lot longer than whatever is in most spar varnishes. HALS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindered_amine_light_stabilizers UVA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_stabilizers

How you strip or sand the wood will have no effect on the longevity of the finish, only how smooth it is. Solvent stripping is now out, however. The EPA or OSHA has banned methylene chloride in strippers to anyone not licensed to use it.

Another suggestion: install a glass storm door over the wooden one. Even “cheap” (soda) glass will block ultraviolet.  It’s why you can’t get a tan from the sun coming through your windshield. You can even add a UV-blocking film to it if you wish.

-Dad

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/6/21 11:20 p.m.

I came here to try and say something helpful... but I have nothing on Asas_dad.  Nice post.

TRoglodyte
TRoglodyte UltraDork
11/7/21 5:41 a.m.

In reply to Asas_Dad :

Nothing educates as well as the voice of experience , Thank You

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa PowerDork
11/7/21 7:58 a.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

In GRM terms, Dad talking woodworking is probably most equivalent to the Nelsons talking drag racing.

birdmayne
birdmayne Reader
11/7/21 8:29 a.m.

In reply to Asas_Dad :

Uh, what he said ^^^ only with much less professional experience and insight.

I use urethane on interior projects and urethane with clear for exterior. Seems to hold up well.

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