Schools, Shootings, Children and Adulthood

The solution is obviously those killer assaisin drones the Chinese and USA are working on.  Google it.

Out of curiosity I went and tried to find the source data for the chart I posted above.

Wikipedia has this table of gun deaths by country and they break it down into homicide, suicide, accidental and undetermined. I think the chart is trying to show homicide by use of firearms, but not sure exactly. I didn't see the chart on http://freedomphilosophy.tv/ which is shown on the chart, so who knows. 

The intesting thing about the swiss having their military arms at their home is that the government doesn't want them to keep ammo at their house.  So.. you've got people who have military arms and training and the goverment doesn't want them to keep ammo at home..  ha.

In reply to STM317 :

no.. it doesn't say that.  It's trying to tell you that, through some chartsmanship...  If they included all accidental and suicides into the chart it would show a different view.. more guns = more gun deaths.. not less...  silly.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Whether the chart shows total gun deaths or not, the intention of that chart is to show that it's easier to kill unarmed people. I have no idea if that data is correct or not, but it's pretty clear to me that was the point that the chart's creator wanted to convey.

Personally, I don't see total gun deaths as being germane to the topic of this thread. Accidents and suicides kill one person at a time, and have been occurring for as long as there have been firearms. This thread was started to discuss causes for, and prevention of, mass shootings at schools (and other soft targets). This is a relatively recent phenomena in our society, and frankly I'm more concerned about a random person killing innocent people by the bus load than I am about a depressed person choosing to end their own life. Loss of life is always tragic. I would cheer for fewer total gun deaths, but there's a huge difference in my mind between mass shootings and suicides or accidents. 

Ok, my impression was that the chart was another attempt at saying without guns, violent crime does not decrease, not that it is easier to kill unarmed people.  How does Japan manage to be so low on both counts then?  The US is not the only outlier on that curve.

I agree that the entire chart is not germane to a discussion on how to stop/prevent mass shootings.  I'll bow out again and remain impressed with the quality of posters on this board who have kept a thread about such a hot button topic amazingly civil for -at the moment- 11 pages.  Great job folks!

THAt freedom philosophy .tv site is total quackery.  Hahaha.  Like not quite Alex jones level but close.  Thanks for the chuckle. 

I don't think mandatory military service is a good thing for everyone. The military will berkeley you up hence why most don't make it to 20 years. The ones who have, are already berkeleyed up enough to make it. 

On a serious note:

 With what Mark said: I do find it interesting that most mass shooters and serial killers are white males. Not making it a race thing but this country (as many others in history) was taken and built by way of violence perpetuated by white males. Why?

Im not saying to take the guns away from that certain group of people because that's crazy. But, it is an interesting fact that we all should think about more. 

And before anyone says it; yes genocide happens in Africa and yes there's black on black crime in the ghettos of America. Just getting the two major deflections out of the way. 

A big thanks to everyone on here for keeping this thread open and civil, it's a hard topic not to let get emotionally charged. More proof that this is the best forum on the internet.

I'm a teacher as is my wife. We are both very glad to have the option to carry at work on the table. I can't imagine an active shooter at my school and being powerless to try and stop them from killing the people that it is my responsibility to help grow into amazing adults. I'm well trained and handle emergency situations well judging from the past. I think about the people that were on site and armed for this event and feel sorry for them, some people are just not up to the challenges they are faced with. We talk E36 M3 but everyone is brave behind a keyboard and these scenarios are very complicated strategically. I've run drills with my kids, I've run the scenarios through my head, I've talked strategies with him numerous times. He's ex military/ ex contractor and I'm tactically minded with a lifetime of training so if we were armed I think we'd do ok, certainly better than if we were unarmed. The fact that we're having to come up with solutions to this sucks, but human shield ain't what I want to be. 

In reply to Ian F :

Good response. To briefly summarize you are saying that the NRA’s power was earned over a long period and because of that group not much can really be done? 

Please note; I didn’t try to judge, merely summarize.  

I feel the reason this time seems different is not because the shooting was particularly egregious (Sandy Hook was the worst imho) 

But because  gun sales are down 90%  in part  because without any real pay increase since the 1970’s  and the average working stiff is struggling to make mortgage and car payments, having an $800 + assault rifle in the closet collecting dust  means pawn shops are overstocked and prices are headed down.  Plus since the election, no judgement,  simply trying to explain why) Remington is declaring bankruptcy, and other gun manufacturers are in similar economic dire straights. 

For better or worse this country’s political system responds to money and without the income from gun manufacturers the NRA is in a much weaker position. 

With the midterm elections only 9 months away politicians are listening to the population and without a massive influx of money from the NRA  they will bend to the will of the people. 

Remington just filed for bankruptcy.   Not a lot of guns being sold right now. Without something or someone to fear, me thinks the nra isn’t going to have lots of money kicking around. 

yupididit said:

I don't think mandatory military service is a good thing for everyone. The military will berkeley you up hence why most don't make it to 20 years. The ones who have, are already berkeleyed up enough to make it. 

 

On a serious note:

 With what Mark said: I do find it interesting that most mass shooters and serial killers are white males. Not making it a race thing but this country (as many others in history) was taken and built by way of violence perpetuated by white males. Why?

Im not saying to take the guns away from that certain group of people because that's crazy. But, it is an interesting fact that we all should think about more. 

 

And before anyone says it; yes genocide happens in Africa and yes there's black on black crime in the ghettos of America. Just getting the two major deflections out of the way. 

Your comment about the military was simply wrong.  I hope you intended it to be funny but I didn’t see a smiley face or any other indication so I’m going to have to explain some facts to you. 

Serving your country is a sacrifice. Personally and economically.  The training we get is worth much more on the civilian market than we are paid for it. 

I know when I got out my earnings quickly doubled tripled and increased by many multipliers.  In fact with less than 20 years as a civilian I was earning more than a 5 star Admiral would with not one 20,000 of the responsibility and pressure.  

Yes the retirement at 20 or 30 years looks attractive but the sacrifices, training, the fact that the officer Corp is an up or out program.  ( you need to be promoted or you are asked to leave no matter how much you’d like to stay)  ensures    the military is led by the very best. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Yeah, it was a joke; look at the emoji posted afterwards. I even said, "on a serious note" when going into my real point of posting. You missed all the indications it was a joke.

Also, I'm currently serving. Over 10 years so far. And your story of post-military income isn't at all typical of our retired veterans. Good on you though!

In reply to yupididit :

Obviously everyone is not going to take to being in the military. Which is why I would classify my idea as mandatory community service rather than military of course military would be an option. 

Anyway I think the idea almost deserves it's own thread so the pros and cons could be fleshed out. 

In reply to Nick Comstock :

I actually agree with some form of mandatory public service. I think they should offer tuition assistance or free education for at least 2 years when completed!

My joke clearly went over a few heads. 

In reply to yupididit :

Then I apologize.  Sorry I was sensitive. I think you’ll find many Vietnam vets came back to a much different welcome than recent Vets have.  By the way, thank you for your service. 

In reply to Nick Comstock :

What I really like about mandatory service is the real world exposure it provides our youth. But it has to be productive and enriching. No picking up trash on the side of the road because no one bothered to think ahead 

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Just to point out about Remington, that has nothing to do with the election. They got bought up by a group of beancounters a few decades back and their QC seriously took a E36 M3. That bankruptcy has been a long time coming.

In reply to Grizz :

I worked for Remington as a summer job I college and am intimately aware of the struggles that’s company has had as it was traded from one holding company to another. I made shotgun barrels  

The issue is partly theirs answer partly the economic conditions. Smith and Wesson has seen some amazing drops in revenue. THEyre actually calling it then “trump slump”. Apparently you can sell a lot of guns to a few people, but the demographic is aging rapidly and not buying as much after a near 20 year record run up      

Remington hasn’t been thr same since it left Ilion  that whole town  was built around that factory   Even then 24 hour McDonald’s right outside the factory gate   

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/02/23/588371710/guns-and-the-trump-slump

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/08/news/companies/american-outdoor-brands-earnings/index.html

90% drop!

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Doesn't bother me. Maybe I can actually get a deal on some stuff soon if there's a ton sitting on the shelves.

I couldn't imagine arming teachers.  Nothing like putting a firearm into the hands of someone ill trained and unsuited to handle it in a panic situation.

There are first responders who don't do act exactly as they're trained in panic situations and now we're going to arm and expect a teacher to respond appropriately?

I'd go as far as making sure my kid didn't go a school where the teachers are armed. 

In reply to docwyte :

Utah lets anyone who has a ccw carry in schools, including teachers. Seems to work out fine for them. And as far as I've seen nobody is saying make all the teachers carry, they're saying let the ones who want to.

I am still on making all scary black rifles NFA weapons. All non-NFA versions will have a Hello Kitty paint theme. :)

In reality.....You should have to shoot you coyotes with a wood stocked long arm and if you decided to get crazy you would only have 10 shots before a reload. You would not be able to buy a semi before the age of 21 and if you allowed your weapons to fall into the hands of a murderer you'd share the blame. People would do their job (FBI, first on the scene) and teachers will continue to focus on teaching. And lastly, the rules already in place should be enforced and if you keep buying guns and they end up lost or stolen you will be cut-off.

Sadly I think this thread will pass without anything getting done.

The one thing I would like to see is some research on the subject from the cdc.  We have an absence of good proper peer reviewed research on gun deaths in this country.  Until we have that most of this is just emotional pissing in the dark.