Social programs or socialism?

People are a lot like water and will almost always follow the path of least resistance. Social programs naturally inspire dependence. When people start taking these programs granted you start getting into dangerous territory. Politicians often propose these programs because A) they believe they are helping people or B) because they wish to inspire dependence. But it really doesn't matter what the motivation was in the first place the end result is often the same. Misguided help can be very dangerous. I am of the opinion that Americans must be allowed to fail. Without failure no one learns from their failures and repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

SupraWes wrote: ....Government is not always the inefficient beast that people think it is, at least not the place I work at,. I get personally offended when I hear these types of remarks, its like people who don't even know me are e36m3 ing all over the work I do....

It the same reason why most people think that Harley riders are inconsiderate A-Holes. Are they? Some are. But those "some" are very visible (audible) and heavily taints the opinion that people have of Harley riders which permeates to the whole.

Good insights here, but the real issue we're facing is lack of education. Our education system is broken, we've dumbed it down to the lowest common denominator, and many schools are simply overwhelmed or could care less about educating those that need it most. Add in to that parents, or lack thereof, that only view their children as government funding entities, and its no wonder we're producing a welfare state. The "no child left behind" act only makes this worse.

Funny thing, my sister the college professor is an out and out liberal like most of her sisterhood and bretheren, and constantly complaining that the real answer to the education system and healthcare issues is more money. Yet, they waste enormous amounts on trivial expenditures, but consider it their right to do so. You'd be shocked at how poorly most university systems are run. And how is throwing even more money at the problem going to address the issues with disentigration of the family unit and an education system decimated by government interference going to change anything other than give teachers more money? And trust me, some of these teachers are not nearly as poorly paid as they would like to have you believe. I should be as unfortunate as some of them.

This is a personal pet peeve of mine. As to the regulation of industries like telephone services, I think the governement styfled it. Look at how far its come since de-regulation. If the government puts a cap on it, there's no need to invest any money into r&d. The best way governments promote industry growth is to bid out technology contracts and see what companies come up with. They still fund it in a manner of speaking, but the private sector does all the work.

racerdave600 wrote: And trust me, some of these teachers are not nearly as poorly paid as they would like to have you believe. I should be as unfortunate as some of them.

Really? I'd like to see those schools. I haven't yet.

I know if I were teaching right now, I could be making almost $5k less per year than I currently am, but with the added benefit of more work and stress.

Who says we don't already have free healthcare for poor? i volunteer as an EMT and recently got called for a kid who got STUNG BY A BEE in the "projects". We can't not go to a call, and the ER can't turn someone away who can't pay.

The lower middle class/ working poor are the ones getting screwed. My female friend's brother is a machinist and cut off the tip of his finger a few days ago (in a car door). If he went in, he'd have to pay more than he can reasonably afford to. So... he's got a bandaid on his finger right now.

I also volunteer at a free clinic (where I rarely see a patient under 200 lbs). I kid you not, I was helping a 27 year old unmarried diabetic girl, who said she would probably not be coming to the free clinic anymore - she wanted to get pregnant so she could get on medicaid.

My cousin's self-employed husband racked up 2 million in bills he'll never pay for his nearly-amputated leg following dirt bike accident.

Our system is screwed all to heck and there are no easy answers. Somehow I'm still going into medicine, but I'll have no reservations about leaving the country once I have that MD.

Salanis wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: And trust me, some of these teachers are not nearly as poorly paid as they would like to have you believe. I should be as unfortunate as some of them.

Really? I'd like to see those schools. I haven't yet. I know if I were teaching right now, I could be making almost $5k less per year than I currently am, but with the added benefit of more work and stress.

And 3-4 months off in the summer.

Michigan teachers are paid quite well, as far as I know.

You should expect a 25% pay reduction if you work 25% less months. But that is partially taken back up by the extra time teachers work during the day- probably a 10 hour day instead of an 8 hour one that the rest of us are required to work. Although, I don't know that many people who only work 8 hours a day. Teachers work as hard as the rest of us- they face different stress- not more. And they get 3 months off in the summer.

Not a bad gig, if you ask me.

slowe30 wrote: Who says we don't already have free healthcare for poor? i volunteer as an EMT and recently got called for a kid who got STUNG BY A BEE in the "projects". We can't not go to a call, and the ER can't turn someone away who can't pay. The lower middle class/ working poor are the ones getting screwed. My female friend's brother is a machinist and cut off the tip of his finger a few days ago (in a car door). If he went in, he'd have to pay more than he can reasonably afford to. So... he's got a bandaid on his finger right now. I also volunteer at a free clinic (where I rarely see a patient under 200 lbs). I kid you not, I was helping a 27 year old unmarried diabetic girl, who said she would probably not be coming to the free clinic anymore - she wanted to get pregnant so she could get on medicaid. My cousin's self-employed husband racked up 2 million in bills he'll never pay for his nearly-amputated leg following dirt bike accident. Our system is screwed all to heck and there are no easy answers. Somehow I'm still going into medicine, but I'll have no reservations about leaving the country once I have that MD.

Following up, and repeating data I've posted before.

15% of Americans don't have "real" healthcare. 85% of us do.

Knowing that Medicare shaves off only 5% vs. the industry average of 20%, if we all pooled our current contributions to healthcare (ie, not chaning your take home pay by one penny), we could pay for ALL of the uninsured AND cover some extra. Assuming medical costs do not change.

Which, of course, is not true- since all of those 15% really do have "healthcare" in that they can go to the most expensive place for our tax dollars to work, the emergency room at the proper hospitals.

Therefore, ALL of us can improve our health care system, make sure doctors are paid properly, by simply removing the middle man- the insurance companies who ONLY lauder our money.

You then reply that the govenement will then tell us what procedures we can and can't get- how is than ANY different than some guy in a large building working for a corporation whoes interest is making money??? The real difference is that the governement employee isn't worried about the stock price, and getting a bonus if the legal money launders proft more from my healthcare money.

Eric

Salanis wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: And trust me, some of these teachers are not nearly as poorly paid as they would like to have you believe. I should be as unfortunate as some of them.

Really? I'd like to see those schools. I haven't yet. I know if I were teaching right now, I could be making almost $5k less per year than I currently am, but with the added benefit of more work and stress.

A friend of mine works for san diego city schools. He makes well over 50k a year and just bought a 400k house. Hes single and hes 23.

alfadriver wrote: You should expect a 25% pay reduction if you work 25% less months. But that is partially taken back up by the extra time teachers work during the day- probably a 10 hour day instead of an 8 hour one that the rest of us are required to work. Although, I don't know that many people who only work 8 hours a day. Teachers work as hard as the rest of us- they face *different* stress- not more. And they get 3 months off in the summer. Not a bad gig, if you ask me.

Clearly you've hung out with a lot of teachers.

Students get 3 months off in the summer. A huge chunk of teachers' break is taken up with grading, lesson prep, organizing their classrooms, taking classes to remain current, etc.

They get about a week at Christmas and a bit less than two months over the summer. Us people who work "year round" also get vacation, that we can usually decide when and how we want to use it. So, figure a teacher maybe gets an extra month of vacation. My teacher friends spend a lot more time on the weekends than I do.

If you want a cushy gig with tons of time off, become a State employee.

Salanis wrote:

alfadriver wrote: You should expect a 25% pay reduction if you work 25% less months. But that is partially taken back up by the extra time teachers work during the day- probably a 10 hour day instead of an 8 hour one that the rest of us are required to work. Although, I don't know that many people who only work 8 hours a day. Teachers work as hard as the rest of us- they face *different* stress- not more. And they get 3 months off in the summer. Not a bad gig, if you ask me.

Clearly you've hung out with a lot of teachers. Students get 3 months off in the summer. A huge chunk of teachers' break is taken up with grading, lesson prep, organizing their classrooms, taking classes to remain current, etc. They get about a week at Christmas and a bit less than two months over the summer. Us people who work "year round" also get vacation, that we can usually decide when and how we want to use it. So, figure a teacher maybe gets an extra month of vacation. My teacher friends spend a lot more time on the weekends than I do. If you want a cushy gig with tons of time off, become a State employee.

Funny you mention it, but, yes, I do. I work out with a bunch of educators. And they are off right now.

And my aunt was a teacher. She had the summer off.

Time is spent as one sees fit.

Heck, I know I work as many hours as my teacher friends do. They do get off for a good bit more than vacation covers for me. She will come to visit for a week or so in the summer cause she gets bored.

Granted, she lives/works in a area that has a fairly good economy so she makes more a year. Then she gets a bonus for being a science teacher doesnt do math so that bonus is out, a bonus for now heading the districts science department, and something else I forget.

Its a tossup, you can make a decent wage teaching, but its all where you go. If you want a little raise, get certified for more stuff. Most of the districts will cover ya.

We need to break the hand out cycle.

Why is there crime in the inner city? Because there is nothing but free time.

If we stopped the hand outs, there will be massive crime, for a bit. But sooner or later, they will need to get JOBS to BUY food, PAY rent, or leave and find it elsewhere

Yeah, because there was hardly any crime before social handouts. And all those places without social handouts have really low crime rates.

lol

Salanis wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: And trust me, some of these teachers are not nearly as poorly paid as they would like to have you believe. I should be as unfortunate as some of them.

Really? I'd like to see those schools. I haven't yet. I know if I were teaching right now, I could be making almost $5k less per year than I currently am, but with the added benefit of more work and stress.

My ex was a teacher, 3rd grade in a really poor area, she made about $40k a year 10 years ago, and she was far from the highest paid. Two friends now are teachers, both make more than that, and time off equals about 6 weeks a year. And I can tell you my sister makes about double those figures, of course she is a Phd and a dept. chair at a university.

SoloSonett wrote: We need to break the hand out cycle. Why is there crime in the inner city? Because there is nothing but free time. If we stopped the hand outs, there will be massive crime, for a bit. But sooner or later, they will need to get JOBS to BUY food, PAY rent, or leave and find it elsewhere

Or, just steal/extort it from you and me.