Some (most) people don't get it....

this probably ought to go in the "minor rant" thread, but....

OK, I'm helping to train a new guy at work. He looks at the wall of my office, and sees my diploma hanging on the wall, but next to it he sees my CISSP and a mensa plaque. He points at the mensa plaque, saying it is more impressive than the diploma. (Gee, thanks. Yes, I know that your diploma is for a higher degree than mine.)

I point at a different wall that has some pictures of my datsun build, and say that should be more impressive than any of the stuff he was looking at. He stares blankly. I talk about the thought and creativity involved in putting automotive bits together that were not intended to match up. I pull a copy of "Shop Class as Soulcraft" off of the bookshelf. I even show him the Matthew Crawford interview on The Colbert Report.

I know that when the new guy left my office he was still very skeptical about my claim that cars can be an intellectually challenging pass time. How do you explain this to people?

JoeyM wrote: I know that when the new guy left my office he was still very skeptical about my claim that cars can be an intellectually challenging pass time. How do you explain this to people?

Challenge them to build one.

Luckily my wife gets it. Otherwise I would be sleeping on the couch more often.

But she also appreciates the fact that the money I make is completely reliant on my ability to diagnose and repair vehicles.
It's more than a skill set, it's a passion and an art. I became a tech because that's what I WANTED to do from childhood. The day to day challenges keep the mind alert and functioning to it's full capacity.

I'm not so sure anymore that "car guy" isn't born into you. I was about to say that there is a kid at work that knows nothing about cars, but wants to learn, that "car guy" can be taught. That wanting to learn part, though, already makes him a car guy.

I try not to worry about it. If it's someone I have cause to spend enough time around, they'll probably back into some kind of appreciation of it via snippets and details here and there.

Very few of my "IRL" friends know or care one whit about cars, but most have come to develop at least a small appreciation of what's involved as they've seen my projects come and go (not that I've had much to show recently).

Similarly to how my girlfriend's idea of the best way to be a feminist is to be present as an intelligent, competent professional and a generally cool person who one would be foolish to sell short because of anatomical differences, I figure the best way to point out that playing with cars isn't a mental-midget pursuit is to be a reasonably well-educated, intelligent, useful person who is a reasonably high-functioning human, and also one who plays with cars. If that piques someone's interest and they wonder why, I'm happy to provide snippets about the romance of both the open road and of craftsmanship, of the joy of turning raw materials into improved parts, and the rush that comes from firing up an engine you assembled or of nailing an apex.

Cars are like any interest. Some people will have no interest, some a passing interest, and some will be well-bitten when they stumble into the field.

I just watched that Colbert interview with Crawford. He did a terrible job of explaining his perspective. I understood his point only because I sympathize. I hope his book is better; maybe he was just nervous or isn't good at explaining himself in person.

He didn't get into much detail about the contrast between what appears to be a simple, process-centric job and how it's actually very complex and analytical—especially if you don't have a set of instructions.

What was the nature of your colleague's skepticism? Did he actually say something that illuminated why he didn't believe that wrenching can be stimulating, or was it just hemming, hawing and body language?

I wonder how much of that is simply a lack of experience in the field, which maybe leads to making assumptions about the intellectual capacity of those involved. Those assumptions may come from images of greasy rednecks and "Hey y'all, watch this!" I don't know if some people think all mechanics do is turn things, swing hammers, drink beer and curse.

I don't understand why we think every guy is a car guy.

they are not.

Just like when computer people look at you blankly when you say you have no idea about computers. As if I have a second head on my back.

Same thing.

People are different, and have different interests.

alfadriver wrote: I don't understand why we think every guy is a car guy.

I think the question is, more precisely, "Why do some people think mechanics are dumb?"

Alan Cesar wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I don't understand why we think every guy is a car guy.

I think the question is, more precisely, "Why do some people think mechanics are dumb?"

Sorta like "why do we think computer people are nerds?"

Same thing. The guy could not relate. Be it painting a picture, strumming a guitar, or hammering a panel. Nothing wrong with that.

ESPN has been doing ads like this for some time- that you are the office outcast if you don't know about Sports. i hate those commericals.

Pardon me. I AM a computer nerd.

The goal is to explain to someone whose main perspective is in the academic community that being a car guy isn't stupid work. The academic generally emphasizes academic pursuits: book learning, analytical thinking. Not so much the hands-on kind of stuff.

There's a broader belief in American society, especially among those pursuing post-grad degrees, that all the trades are full of dumb people. Welders, plumbers, mechanics and so on, they're doing these things for a living because they're not smart enough to be sociologists or engineers or philosophers.

The whole concept is that working on a car is not mindless work. It requires creativity, it's not just punching numbers on a control board. Apparently, Matthew Crawford's experience (and I can corroborate) suggests that some academic jobs are more mindless than working with your hands. How do you get that across to an academic colleague when he comes to visit your office and thinks you're wasting your time on dumb car stuff because that's for dummies.

Why doesn't me has a MENSA plack?

pinchvalve wrote: Why doesn't me has a MENSA plack?

you dont want one, placks are on your tooth. you brush placks off with brushes that are for teeth. My grandpa had a brushes. I saw it once.

That's why.

i have a cousin that went to many years of schooling to become an engineer.. he worked at GM designing window regulators or something for a few years, and is currently in Huntsville, Alabama working on stuff for the pieces that hold the different stages of the new manned rockets together...

this summer we had a family reunion here, and he took the 4 wheeler down the road a little ways to get a good panoramic shot of the house and all the cars and people and what not... he got stuck down there for a good 15 minutes because the idea of putting the push button shifter into neutral before trying to restart the 4 wheeler never occurred to him and he only figured it out after i walked all the way out there and asked him what gear it was in. at least he had a good sense of humor about it- the first thing he said when he came back was that he expected to hear some good "NASA rocket scientist" jokes..

he was later caught marveling at the aerodynamic "mods" that i had done to my Camaro with lawn edging, lexan, and duct tape..

Alan Cesar wrote: Pardon me. I AM a computer nerd. The goal is to explain to someone whose main perspective is in the academic community that being a car guy isn't stupid work. The academic generally emphasizes academic pursuits: book learning, analytical thinking. Not so much the hands-on kind of stuff. There's a broader belief in American society, especially among those pursuing post-grad degrees, that all the trades are full of dumb people. Welders, plumbers, mechanics and so on, they're doing these things for a living because they're not smart enough to be sociologists or engineers or philosophers. The whole concept is that working on a car is not mindless work. It requires creativity, it's not just punching numbers on a control board. Apparently, Matthew Crawford's experience (and I can corroborate) suggests that some academic jobs are more mindless than working with your hands. How do you get that across to an academic colleague when he comes to visit your office and thinks you're wasting your time on dumb car stuff because that's for dummies.

Well, it's also interesting that we, as a society, think that working on the farm isn't really hard work. Which is assuming that physical work is easier than mental work. Of course that isn't true at all, but we do value mental work far far above physical work. See- IOE designers of a production line vs. the people who do the physical work.

Hard to get around that base assumption. And since that thinking goes back millenia, while I appreciate what you are trying to do, I suspect that it's not going to go far.

I've given up trying to relate my car hobby to non people. And there are a shocking number of those who work for car companies. I'm trying to save myself, not convert them.

Chris_V wrote: That's why.

Holy crap! It's like snapshot of my life. I work as a web designer in a corporate communication department. People are amazed I know how to change their tire when it goes flat in the parking deck.

Alan Cesar wrote: I hope his book is better; maybe he was just nervous or isn't good at explaining himself in person.

Crawford's book is amazing. It felt like the first book I had read in ages really exercised my brain.....not just his expansive vocabulary that left me reading while keeping a dictionary at hand. It was also the literary quality to the prose. It is the sort of thing where you want to call friends and read passages to them....but nearly every other page has a passage like that.

Alan Cesar wrote: What was the nature of your colleague's skepticism? Did he actually say something that illuminated why he didn't believe that wrenching can be stimulating, or was it just hemming, hawing and body language?

He didn't say anything, but seemed torn between "dubious" and "confused"

Alan Cesar wrote: I don't know if some people think all mechanics do is turn things, swing hammers, drink beer and curse.

I'm certain that's the case.

Alan Cesar wrote: Pardon me. I AM a computer nerd.

I find scripting (I don't do real programming) to be remarkably similar to playing with cars......but that is probably because of my lack of experience with both. A skilled programmer sits down and writes. I, OTOH, tend to spend a lot of time grappling with the idea, "This is what I need to accomplish. How do I get from here to there? These are the steps....but what are the specific details"

Alan Cesar wrote: The goal is to explain to someone whose main perspective is in the academic community that being a car guy isn't stupid work. The academic generally emphasizes academic pursuits: book learning, analytical thinking. Not so much the hands-on kind of stuff.

...and yet, this academic would not hold the painter, photographer, or musician in the same low regard that. They don't seem to grok that diagnosis of car issues involves similar mental processes to diagnosing physical ailments.

JoeyM wrote: ...and yet, this academic would not hold the painter, photographer, or musician in the same low regard that. They don't seem to grok that diagnosis of car issues involves similar mental processes to diagnosing physical ailments.

I so wish I could find that Calvin and Hobbs debating cartoons as high art- being that it's a combination of wirting and drawing. Hilarious.

Akin to making a sculpure out of metal vs. using the same methods to make a body panel.

Some people will never get it, so why worry.

edit- found it

alfadriver wrote: Akin to making a sculpure out of metal vs. using the same methods to make a body panel.

Exactly! Panel beating is every bit as creative as making this thing.

(probably more so, actually, since the panel has to be both aesthetic and functional)

That looks like swarf

JoeyM wrote: I find scripting (I don't do real programming) to be remarkably similar to playing with cars......but that is probably because of my lack of experience with both. A skilled programmer sits down and writes. I, OTOH, tend to spend a lot of time grappling with the idea, "This is what I need to accomplish. How do I get from here to there? These are the steps....but what are the specific details"

I know it's a giant tangent, but I have to point out that scripting is very much "real" programming; it's much more about what you're doing than what language it's in.

Unless it's something really, utterly trivial, there's some time spent figuring out what you're trying to do and how to approach it. Often, this is a larger part of the project than the actual coding.

I once got into an argument with a friend who was telling me how he was so much more introspective and self-aware than me because he played guitar and experimented with hallucinogenic drugs, and I never pushed my mind the way he did because all I did were these extrinsic things like racing cars and rock climbing.

My response went along the lines of, "berkeley you. You have no berkeleying clue what it is like to race cars or why I do it. I put myself in situations where I force my mind and body to process and react to situations faster than it is normally capable of. In order to reach that point, I spend countless hours studying, training, and preparing. Don't think to lecture me on how I am not 'expanding my awareness' or whatever."

In reply to Beer Baron:

Should have been a lot more condesending. Like 'I'm sorry that it takes you drugs to reach that point, as the feeling I get when I'm climbing or taking corners correctly is very amazing. So all I need is to drive or climb- you need artificial help'..

BTW, IMHO, that's quite true. More than once I've been amazed how relaxing I feel when taking some corners just right. Or when autocrossing- pushing the car until it starts to "float"- its pretty amazing.

Sweet I found my sponsor for my CISSP.

Anyways, I know very few IT people that are also interested in cars, let alone at the same interest level that I have. It blows most of my co-workers minds that I know how to simply change my own oil let alone restore a car. That whole stereotype of IT nerds also being car nerds is false. Successful IT people may buy expensive cars simply for the status or attention they may get but most def are not intuitive in the subject.

With that being said, work is very boring for me because I have nothing in common with any of my co-workers. They aren't interested in cars, sports, video games, etc. It blows my mind they have nothing interesting to do in their spare time besides watch reality tv.