Speaking of terrorists....

ignorant wrote:

Datsun1500 wrote: The only problem there is you think the world should live by your beliefs and systems, not theirs.

I interpreted it as meaning that WE should live by our beliefs.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. If we want other people to see eye to eye with us, we have to live our own beliefs first. Then, if we're on to something, people will join us.

Drewsifer, many years ago this country was founded in no small part on the premise that all men are equal and that people should be able to worship (or not; I am an atheist) as they please; the government cannot force anyone to follow a certain religion. That has led to all kinds of stuff like removing nativity scenes from government property, etc. It also means that no religious denomination can force their beliefs on others. I think we are on to something for sure.

We as a country have followed this (for the most part) since 1776. I think we have walked the walk. So these folk see our tolerance and they HATE it, they call us godless heathens and infidels and plot our destruction.

So who's not seeing eye to eye?

Jensenman wrote: Drewsifer, many years ago this country was founded in no small part on the premise that all men are equal and that people should be able to worship (or not; I am an atheist) as they please; the government cannot force anyone to follow a certain religion. That has led to all kinds of stuff like removing nativity scenes from government property, etc. It also means that no religious denomination can force their beliefs on others. I think we are on to something for sure. We as a country have followed this (for the most part) since 1776. I think we have walked the walk. So these folk see our tolerance and they HATE it, they call us godless heathens and infidels and plot our destruction. So who's not seeing eye to eye?

I'm at the end of my shift, so I'm sort of brain dead right now. Are you agreeing with me, or arguing? If you're agreeing, then hooray! You're right, this country is founded on the idea that you have the freedom of religion, and the freedom from religion. I absolutely agree with you.

If you're arguing with me though, I have no clue whats going on.

Jensenman wrote: So these folk see our tolerance and they HATE it, they call us godless heathens and infidels and plot our destruction.

Ohh Brother. Thats scary and I'm not going to touch it.

But I think if you look a little further into the subject you'll find that these guys hate us for two reasons now.

1. The inconsistent application of our policy in the region (i.e. not living up to our professed values during our dealings there)

2. Cause we're over there shooting at them. In the same vein of the Rebel soldier who was asked by his Yankee captors why he was fighting and he replied, something to the effect of, because you're down here.

I don't really have a preferance what type of trial they have but I wish that they could hold this circus somewhere other than Lower Manhattan. It is a traffic nightmare already and with the proposed added security measures they might as well close down altogether.

Drewsifer wrote:

Jensenman wrote: Drewsifer, many years ago this country was founded in no small part on the premise that all men are equal and that people should be able to worship (or not; I am an atheist) as they please; the government cannot force anyone to follow a certain religion. That has led to all kinds of stuff like removing nativity scenes from government property, etc. It also means that no religious denomination can force their beliefs on others. I think we are on to something for sure. We as a country have followed this (for the most part) since 1776. I think we have walked the walk. So these folk see our tolerance and they HATE it, they call us godless heathens and infidels and plot our destruction. So who's not seeing eye to eye?

I'm at the end of my shift, so I'm sort of brain dead right now. Are you agreeing with me, or arguing? If you're agreeing, then hooray! You're right, this country is founded on the idea that you have the freedom of religion, and the freedom from religion. I absolutely agree with you. If you're arguing with me though, I have no clue whats going on.

No argument.

The statement is that they are not seeing eye to eye with us. We practice religious tolerance, they don't and are willing to kill Americans over it. But somehow lots of folks say we are the bad guys.

ignorant wrote:

Jensenman wrote: So these folk see our tolerance and they HATE it, they call us godless heathens and infidels and plot our destruction.

Ohh Brother. Thats scary and I'm not going to touch it.

It's the truth.

ignorant wrote: But I think if you look a little further into the subject you'll find that these guys hate us for two reasons now. 1. The inconsistent application of our policy in the region (i.e. not living up to our professed values during our dealings there)

Are you referring to our Israel policy? That's a whole 'nother can of worms which was opened by the entire Western world. Britain presided over the creation of the modern Israel, then walked away and left them to get clobbered. So we stepped in. Would you suggest we just let the Arab world overrun them? Nazi actions of WWII were bad enough, that would have been genocide by apathy, even worse.

Or maybe it's because we buy oil from the Saudis. Okay, who else should we buy oil from? The Russians? Then we would be helping prop up a country which is both reverting to Communism and is said to be full of thugs who are perverting the idea of capitalism. Can't win.

ignorant wrote: 2. Cause we're over there shooting at them. In the same vein of the Rebel soldier who was asked by his Yankee captors why he was fighting and he replied, something to the effect of, because you're down here.

I would like to direct your attention back to the first WTC attack in 1993, the USS Cole, the Lockerbie bombings, the yada yada yada ad nauseam. After all that, damn right we are over there shooting at them. About frickin' time.

Yamamoto said after the Pearl Harbor attack, 'I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant.' History repeats itself for those too dumb to learn from it.

Hi Jensenman,

This is RX-Reven’s boss and I just wanted to thank you for providing posts that are so well written that my employee feels no need to take time from his work to participate in this thread.

Jensenman wrote: A bunch of mumbo jumbo...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles and our current situation are intertwined. Figure it out for yourself.. Some bullE36 M3 about hating us cause we're tolerant dosen't cut it buddy... You gotta go deeper..

You're looking at the symptoms and no the disease...

Would you want to be surrounded by a few million angry New Yorkers who wanted to kill you? Good luck guaranteeing their safety!

In reply to pinchvalve:

Terrorists love to be surrounded by infidels, but politicians hate to be surrounded by PO'd voters.

When the trial procedings go south the biggest losers won't be carrying a Qur'an.

ignorant wrote:

Jensenman wrote: A bunch of mumbo jumbo...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles and our current situation are intertwined. Figure it out for yourself.. Some bullE36 M3 about hating us cause we're tolerant dosen't cut it buddy... You gotta go deeper.. You're looking at the symptoms and no the disease...

Symptoms and disease are inextricably intertwined.

Of course the Treaty of Versailles has a part in it. For instance, Britain cobbled together modern day Iraq from bits and pieces of the leftovers of the Ottoman empire. The British also ran Palestine until 1948, when they handed it over to the founders of the modern state of Israel. Funny; I don't see the US listed as running anything in the Mideast as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. Quite the opposite; the US pursued a policy of isolationism until Yamamoto sank some ships in a sneak attack.

If you want to really get down to it, the current problems in the Mideast can be blamed on the Crusades. (It really goes back even further than that.) Hey, that was interesting: hundreds of year ago Muslims and Christians were fighting over Palestine (today's Israel), each trying to force their religion on the other and, if they wouldn't accept it, kill them. Sound familiar?

The problems are not new in any way. The only thing new is the weaponry.

The US was founded on religious tolerance. Heck, lots of the people who first settled here left their homelands over religious persecution. That whole thing was still pretty new and raw to the Founding Fathers so they made sure our government could not choose one religion over another. Say whatever you want, AFAIK that was the first time a country had that kind of tolerance written into its founding documents.

And that pisses off the intolerant to no end. To the point that they want to kill the non believer infidels over it.

RX Reven' wrote: Hi Jensenman, This is RX-Reven’s boss and I just wanted to thank you for providing posts that are so well written that my employee feels no need to take time from his work to participate in this thread.

Glad I could contribute to your productivity.

Jensenman wrote:

ignorant wrote:

Jensenman wrote: A bunch of mumbo jumbo...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles and our current situation are intertwined. Figure it out for yourself.. Some bullE36 M3 about hating us cause we're tolerant dosen't cut it buddy... You gotta go deeper.. You're looking at the symptoms and no the disease...

Symptoms and disease are inextricably intertwined. Of course the Treaty of Versailles has a part in it. For instance, Britain cobbled together modern day Iraq from bits and pieces of the leftovers of the Ottoman empire. The British also ran Palestine until 1948, when they handed it over to the founders of the modern state of Israel. Funny; I don't see the US listed as running anything in the Mideast as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. Quite the opposite; the US pursued a policy of isolationism until Yamamoto sank some ships in a sneak attack. If you want to really get down to it, the current problems in the Mideast can be blamed on the Crusades. (It really goes back even further than that.) Hey, that was interesting: hundreds of year ago Muslims and Christians were fighting over Palestine (today's Israel), each trying to force their religion on the other and, if they wouldn't accept it, kill them. Sound familiar? The problems are not new in any way. The only thing new is the weaponry. The US was founded on religious tolerance. Heck, lots of the people who first settled here left their homelands over religious persecution. That whole thing was still pretty new and raw to the Founding Fathers so they made sure our government could not choose one religion over another. Say whatever you want, AFAIK that was the first time a country had that kind of tolerance written into its founding documents. And that pisses off the intolerant to no end. To the point that they want to kill the non believer infidels over it.

Islamic attacks on the "west" pre-date the Crusades by a few hundred years.

Everyone has four cheeks to turn, but there seems to be a singular entity that wants blood from each of them. One entity offers all its' cheeks for flagellation and the other repeatedly has taken advantage of every opportunity. The wounds may heal but the scars, memories and history cannot be erased.

Current events make our Constitutional-founders bigger heroes than ever. They escaped oppression until it found them again, they attempted diplomacy until it failed, then they said "no more" and fought and died for freedom.

Sad, but it appears that the enlightened among us seem stuck on the diplomacy thing. Maybe the "next time" will affect their perceptions.

There's only two things I can't stand. People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures

And the dutch.

Drewsifer wrote: There's only two things I can't stand. People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures And the dutch.

So, what do you have against Islamic extremists?

Just askin'?

Jensenman wrote: I'm perfectly willing to live my decadent scummy Western infidel way and let the pure devout fundamentalist Islamic live his way. But if he decides that I should be put to death for not believing as he and then acts violently on that (thus trying to force his beliefs on me in the most virulent way possible: convert or die!), why it's triple tap time.

Many who lived in Central or South America from the sixties to the eighties would probably like to say something about this. Our past isn't so squeaky clean.

Never said it was. We aren't perfect.

Having said that, let me ask: when people leave other countries due to persecution (and the Roman Polanski types don't count!) where do they go, for the most part?

Yup. I'm just stupid and/or naive enough to still believe in the promise this country was founded upon.

Since some people think we have to play this game the "Right" way...

Being a Federal Case now, doesn't that mean that the suspect should have his Miranda Rights read to him when he was arrested? Guess was wasn't read to him when the MILITARY arrested him? Any one want to bet against me that the lawyers ask for this case to be thrown out because they weren't read their rights?

Drewsifer wrote: There's only two things I can't stand. People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures And the dutch.

Man, what is that from? I know it's from something. Austin Powers 3, maybe?

JeepinMatt wrote:

Drewsifer wrote: There's only two things I can't stand. People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures And the dutch.

Man, what is that from? I know it's from something. Austin Powers 3, maybe?

Yeah, Austin powers 3. From Austins dad.

@JeepinMatt, that is one of the problems with this case. A terrorist doesn't fit perfectly anywhere. He wasn't arrested by civilians (like you said) he doesn't really belong in civilian courts. He isn't a soldier, so he isn't a good fit for military courts. International courts don't really want to to touch him. So what do we do?

Drewsifer wrote: @JeepinMatt, that is one of the problems with this case...

@ who?

MitchellC wrote: Many who lived in Central or South America from the sixties to the eighties would probably like to say something about this. Our past isn't so squeaky clean.

This is what I'm driving at; You need to go deeper into this current problem. Saying they hate us because we are tolerant is a Faux News soundbyte and thats all.

Here's some quick thoughts:

1. Look at the Treaty of Versailles and how the Mid East was divided up and then put back together. How many Ethnic Enemies did we now put under one government? How much crap did we give away to Ibn Saud? Why?

2. This is the big one...... In any decade, look at who we are arming at the current moment? We have armed just about every dictator in that area at any given times. Once we achieved whatever goal we wanted to by arming said dictator, what did he do with those U.S. Government weapons? How does it look to an average towns person in that area to have the US come in and support a man/beast who just terrorizes his own people? Does this make us look like hypocrites to those towns people(hint... yes)? Does it look like we're throwing our might around and running their country by being such imperial pigs? (maybe)

Sorry if the above seems all self righteous, it's not supposed to be. I just want to ask some questions so some people do some thinking on their own. Theres a reason why we're hated, and it's not because of the religion.

An old Lebonese professor, I had, once said something to the effect of: "the Mid East has been around longer than your country has been around. They don't forget anything. It can take 100 years before you see the repercussions of your actions there.. " (I think I horribly butchered the quote, but the gist is right)

Yeah, remember all those Central Americans that tried to bomb the Empire State Building?

BTW, as soon as you said "Faux" news, you lost all credibility.

ignorant wrote:

MitchellC wrote: Many who lived in Central or South America from the sixties to the eighties would probably like to say something about this. Our past isn't so squeaky clean.

This is what I'm driving at; You need to go deeper into this current problem. Saying they hate us because we are tolerant is a Faux News soundbyte and thats all. Here's some quick thoughts: 1. Look at the Treaty of Versailles and how the Mid East was divided up and then put back together. How many Ethnic Enemies did we now put under one government? How much crap did we give away to Ibn Saud? Why? 2. This is the big one...... In any decade, look at who we are arming at the current moment? We have armed just about every dictator in that area at any given times. Once we achieved whatever goal we wanted to by arming said dictator, what did he do with those U.S. Government weapons? How does it look to an average towns person in that area to have the US come in and support a man/beast who just terrorizes his own people? Does this make us look like hypocrites to those towns people(hint... yes)? Does it look like we're throwing our might around and running their country by being such imperial pigs? (maybe) Sorry if the above seems all self righteous, it's not supposed to be. I just want to ask some questions so some people do some thinking on their own. Theres a reason why we're hated, and it's not because of the religion. An old Lebonese professor, I had, once said something to the effect of: "the Mid East has been around longer than your country has been around. They don't forget anything. It can take 100 years before you see the repercussions of your actions there.. " (I think I horribly butchered the quote, but the gist is right)

Your Lebanese professor hit right at the heart of it. They won't forget. And that is the root of their problems.

During WWII, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor even after we had pursued a 'hands off' policy toward both Asia and Europe. After that, we whooped German, Italian and Japanese ass. We dropped two A bombs on Japan (and yes I feel that was necessary to end that war). We (along with the British) firebombed Dresden, some say that was actually worse than the A bombs.

So now who are our biggest trading partners (next to the Chinese, that is)? Have you checked out the number of Japanese and German companies which have built plants here thus supplying Americans with jobs?

Did they (and we) choose to sulk and nurse their grudges or did they decide to get their act together and become productive members of the world?

Where do the Arabs get off pissing and moaning today about events from antiquity? I'd say it's time for them to grow up and join the rest of humanity in trying to create rather than destroy. Until then I don't really have a lot of sympathy for their situation.

About South America: you might want to look into the Puerto Rican separatists who attacked the US Capitol building. Yeah, I know they are sorta our state, but humor me.