SPOILERS Last Jedi discussion for those who saw it SPOILERS

In reply to yupididit :

Eh. Fair enough. Stuff with Luke was not my biggest beef. I think his character could have been handled *better* or differently in ways that made for more compelling story arcs for other characters, especially Rey and Kylo. He could have not totally ignored Chewy the whole time. I think it was inconsistent with previous stories, but agree that it did not really detract from *this* story the way certain other characters did (General Gingers-have-no-Souls, Admiral Purple-Hair, and Rose).

In reply to Beer Baron :

Looks like Mark Hamill has changed his mind about Luke's portrayal  Mark Hamil Regrets Critizing "Last Jedi" Version of Luke Skywalker

EDIT - including Hamill's entire tweet from the article "I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public," Hamill tweeted to his more than 2.2 million followers. "Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that- @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one! #HumbledHamill"

Okay now I've seen the movie and read all the reviews across the galaxy.

First of all I am a Star Wars fan, but not a super fan. I know a lot of back story and in between story so here goes.

I liked the Last Jedi.

A lot of fans didn't like the fact that Luke's persona changed. Okay, how many of you have the same outlook on life as you did 20-30 years ago? Things have happened in between that made us look at things in a different light. Luke was forever hopeful, optimistic in the first trilogy. Honestly, other than provide hope, he really didn't do anything in the first trilogy besides not turn to the dark side. Anakin killed the Emperor and himself in the process because of this hope. Luke became a legend because of this and this only. His legendary status leads Leia and Han to entrust their son to him. He not only lets their son be enticed by the dark side, but finalizes the push by showing his weakness. Luke's fear completes the path that Kylo takes. Kylo is a scared child whose betrayal by his master is the final straw that pushes him toward the dark side and his anger toward Luke keeps him there. This is failure on a grand scale. Not only did Luke fail as a Jedi, but he failed his family as he was entrusted with their most valuable asset because he was the legendary Jedi Master. When he fails he realizes that he is not a legend, nor could anybody succeed because legends are the thing of myth, not real people who have weaknesses. Hence, why he has exiled himself. 

yupididit said:

I know some of the biggest lessons I've learned in the air force were from fresh young Airmen who didn't know the life but their newbness gave me fresh revelations on the E36 M3 I thought I already knew. And Luke isn't all strong or all knowing, he's barely had mentors before becoming The Mentor himself. 

Teachers and Masters always have things to learn from their students. Luke certainly has things to learn. My bigger issue surrounding that is less about Luke having things to learn, and more about him having things to teach. This movie seems to me to misunderstand what it means to be a Jedi Master (as established in Return of the Jedi).

Yoda tells Luke that he has one final thing he must do to become a Jedi Master. He must face Vader. Luke finally realizes what Yoda says when they first meet, "Wars not make one great." He becomes a Jedi Master when he realizes that the ends do not justify the means, that he must act according to his principles. He decides not to fight. He turns his light saber off. That is the moment he becomes a Master.

He realizes that being a Jedi Master isn't about having the most power with the force. It's about being one with the force and standing for principles. He did not spend the length of time training the Yoda or Obi Wan spent. Rather he undergoes greater trials and a more intense journey than they do. He comes to surpass them by realizing things they did not because his path takes him deeper into himself. He does not try to be without emotion and temptation. He learns to accept his fallibility, make it a part of himself, and overcome the hubris of the old Jedi order that caused them to fall.

And it is this Mastery that defeats the Emperor. Yes, it is Vader that throws the Emperor to his death. But it is the moment of Anakin/Vader finally seeing what true mastery is leads him to make the choice to walk a path of true mastery rather than a path of power.

This gets back to the central problem with the training sequence and weaknesses in Rey's character arcs. It focuses on how *strong* with the Force Rey is. About how *powerful* she is. This runs contrary to the lessons Luke realized that allowed him to become a Jedi Master, that power with the force is not mastery.

This new trilogy is about Rey, Finn, and Poe, and none of them really learn much about themselves in the course of this film. Rey gains power. She finds out who her parents were. But she is not forced to face her own shortcomings and hubris that must be overcome in order for her to eventually succeed on her quest.

Luke's defeat of the Emperor was more predicated on his blind faith in the inherent goodness of his Father than his mastery of the Force.  If anything it could be argued that he should have had more faith in the child he personally trained (Ben/Kylo) than in the Father he only met a handful of times who was actively trying to either kill him or convert him to the dark side.   Anyway, this can be debated ad infinitum.  In any case, i thought it was a really good movie and i'm anxious to see where the saga goes from here.

Too early to start discussing Episode IX?

David S. Wallens said:

Too early to start discussing Episode IX?

I am happy that J.J. Abrams is handling IX. TLJ would have turned out better if the Disney had just stuck with him for all 3 movies.

In reply to Beer Baron :

That's an interesting take on Luke from the first trilogy. I will disagree to the point that Luke wouldn't fight. He did battle Vader and was able to overcome Vader through fear and anger at the thought that Vader would go after Leia. His enlightenment was the fact that he stopped short of killing Vader to stay the course of the light and shun the dark side. Luke does not have to become his father, which in my mind is the turmoil he is dealing with in the first trilogy, and this realization is when he becomes a Jedi Master.

I've always thought the ending of Vader killing the Emperor was a simple matter of choosing love over hate. I need to rewatch RotJ with your spin on it in mind. 

In reply to David S. Wallens

Not at all, frankly i've been thinking about Rey and her ascendancy as it were (thinking is always a dangerous activity for me).  If you go back to The Force Awakens, she is not a physically imposing figure but she managed to not only survive but actually thrive while abandoned on Jakku.  During the course of that movie even though she had no actual knowledge of the force beyond what she thought were fabricated stories she was able to perform feats on par with those of fully trained Jedi-superhuman reflexes and intuition in piloting the Millenium Falcon, intimate knowledge of the systems that run a spacecraft, using the Jedi mind trick, using the force to call the lightsaber to her, besting an wounded Kylo in lightsaber combat.  There is no way she could have come to know those things in her isolation on Jakku, so in that respect she was already quite powerful, just with no knowledge of her power.   In the course of The Last Jedi she expanded her knowledge on how to use the force, but still without a full understanding of what it is.  In my opinion she may be an order of magnitude more powerful than Kylo, as she has had even less training than Luke yet can wield such raw power.   Maybe Rey is the answer to the prophecy, the one who will restore balance to the force.  Or, heck maybe that Porg that Chewie didn't cook to eat is a Jedi master.  Only way to know for sure is to stay tuned.

In reply to 06HHR :

Regarding Rey's lack of training/partial training/training to be continued by Ghost Luke, Bruce Lee said it perfectly; "Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick."

In reply to WildScotsRacingCampbellCougarSeed :

I like the analogy, it certainly sums up Rey's journey so far.  As far as the other characters, Finn is heroic, but it's a heroism borne out of fear of the First Order and childhood trauma. He clearly has affection for Rey, but she's kind of a bit out of his league. I think the Rose character is a good addition, we need someone else to care about other than the Skywalker family and Admiral Ackbar (RIP).  Poe is the new hothead, but not an admitted scoundrel like Han.  With the depletion of the resistance i guess it's inevitable he will become part of the new command structure, but does he have the temperament for command?  I mean his actions directly resulted in the loss of the entire bomber force and some would day almost facilitated the destruction of the resistance.  Maybe Episode IX will give us some answers and maybe not.  One thing is for certain, it will be very different from what has come before, simply because most (all?) of the characters from the past will be out of the picture, except for Chewie and Ghost Luke, i'd like to see Ghost Yoda again though, that part was cool.

EDIT:  I see Rose as a grounding force in the story, she's not swashbuckling like Poe or Force-sensitive.  She's a human who much like Finn has suffered hardships and had to adjust.  Anyway, can you tell it's a slow day for me at work?

David S. Wallens said:

Too early to start discussing Episode IX?

Never.

I never did buy into the theories that Snoke was Palpatine reborn or whatever, personally I thought he was Plageus. I don't know what is technically canon anymore, but if Darth Maul can be halved and chucked down a well and survive, I would find it difficult to believe that Palpatine couldn't survive his fall too, but maybe that doesn't matter and maybe we'll never know.

Also if Maul can survive being halved I would imagine Snoke could as well. We know that Jedi can "disappear" when they get killed (Obi-Wan) or when they expire (Yoda) or at will (Luke). It only makes sense that the dark side would be able to do something similar. Why then couldn't Snoke have done a similar thing, possibly to return in a different body or something? I like the idea that he might still have been Plageus, who conquered death, and will return. Probably not, but I like the idea.

Disney does seem to be more in the business of character building and less of world or universe building, so maybe we'll never know and it's all just speculation. 

As for the new force giants, i.e. Rey and Ren, neither seems very well trained or particularly stable. But Kylo scared Luke, and overpowered him, as did Rey, and Luke was the strongest jedi ever so they say. Both of them are strong. Really strong. I think if disney has any intentions of actually finishing this saga they will either kill each other off, team up, or destroy the universe.

But, this is disney, so they probably won't resolve anything in my lifetime. I predict they do to star wars what they did to pirates, kick it till it bleeds, then keep kicking until everyone who ever was a fan swears off the next 13 sequels.

In reply to barefootskater :

Regarding the "disappear/become one with the Force at will bit", they totally nicked that from Tolkien. The Dunedain nobility had the gift of being able to die at will when they reached old age.

Does anybody else think there was something left out when Kylo and Rey are fighting over the lightsaber and the next thing we know she is on the falcon with the broken saber and he is passed out on the floor. I feel this was an odd place to cut out a scene.

In reply to WildScotsRacingCampbellCougarSeed :

And Tolkien probably borrowed that from someone else. He borrowed a lot. Lots of people do. You could even say that Lucas borrowed the idea of the force. I can't remember the details but look at the use of the number 2187 in star wars. There are several Tube videos about it. It's called borrowing or riffing when done respectfully, or it's called ripping off when people don't like it or it is misunderstood. Happens all the time.

I have my own problems with JRR "Lets ignore the eagles until I can't possibly think of another way to save the heroes" Tolkien. But nobody is perfect, and the stories are great anyway so it doesn't matter.

In reply to D2W:

I think it would be neat if they used that unknown window as a plot point but I don't think they will. Probably just another example of the director's admittedly choppy storyline. Could be something there but I doubt it.

Waited until I saw the movie to read this thread. I just saw it with my 8 year old.  

I liked it and of course have nitpicks, but the 8yo thought it was GREAT.  I felt the same way when I saw Empire Strikes Back in the theater when I was the same age.  And when I comes down to it that’s all that matters...

David S. Wallens said:

Too early to start discussing Episode IX?

Only if you join the fandom and decide to hate it already (and that's fandom vs fans, two different things.)  I love how many "fans" hate everything Star Wars since 1983, I don't think that's what that word means.

barefootskater said:

You could even say that Lucas borrowed the idea of the force. I can't remember the details but look at the use of the number 2187 in star wars.

He sure did! And he's far from the first or the last. It's a lightly fictionalized knockoff of the concept of Chi energy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

See also:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KiManipulation?from=Main.KiAttacks

D2W said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

That's an interesting take on Luke from the first trilogy. I will disagree to the point that Luke wouldn't fight. He did battle Vader and was able to overcome Vader through fear and anger at the thought that Vader would go after Leia. His enlightenment was the fact that he stopped short of killing Vader to stay the course of the light and shun the dark side. Luke does not have to become his father, which in my mind is the turmoil he is dealing with in the first trilogy, and this realization is when he becomes a Jedi Master.

I've always thought the ending of Vader killing the Emperor was a simple matter of choosing love over hate. I need to rewatch RotJ with your spin on it in mind. 

I like your interpretation. This fills in some gaps with what I feel to be a key to the philosophy and moral of Episodes 2-6 (Episode 1 can die in a fire). It's the bringing balance to the Force. The Jedi were too aloof and completely suppressed and denied their feelings. The Sith were too destructive and gave in to their passions.

Luke became the true master when he learned the value of BOTH lessons. To neither deny, nor be ruled by passions.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I agree with this. I always found it odd that the Jedi did not allow love. Sorry to sound like a teenage girl here but that's the thing that motivates people to help, to be compassionate and to become better people/jedi etc. That passionless-ness of the Jedi to me was almost as bad as the sith's search for absolute power. 

While I applaud Disney for giving the director creative freedom, it felt like he went a little too far from what TFA was setting up.

I was happy for Rey to be an abandoned nobody rather than a lost Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine, but the reveal was anticlimactic. How was she connected to the lightsaber? Is she just randomly super strong with the force like young Anakin? 

What did we learn about Snoke? He’s huge, and now dead.  I did enjoy seeing the fight scene with the guards. Similarly, what do we know about the knights of ren? They where never mentioned by name but just that they joined Kylo after the burning of the temple. 

My only express dislike was the scene with Mas. It felt forced and gimmicky. 

For IX, I hope Lando shows up as an outer rim ally, and maybe Mandalore.  

Wait, Anakin is Vader?

Guess we will see Vader 2.0 in the next movie?

In reply to Sine_Qua_Non :

I don't think so. Vader was a simple villian who only brought forth evil. Only Luke ever thought there was good in him, and there was no evidence until the very end that was true.

Kylo Ren on the other hand is a much more complex character. Its obvious he is conflicted. Torn between right and wrong, you never really know what he is going to do. I think it was very important that he wasn't able to kill Luke, while it was important he killed Han.Killing Luke, who betrayed him as his master, would only have made his anger grow. Never giving him the ability to forgive him and let go of the hate. Killing Han on the other hand stays with him as a regret as he had no real anger towards Han. Rey not joining him to rule was one more item that made him feel abandoned. It will be interesting to watch how their relationship plays out.

I enjoyed it, although I agree that we could have had more development of the character driven stories.  In episodes 1-3, we follow the growth of both Anakin-Vader, and, although its been years and  may very well be saying something profoundly stupid here, we see Palpatine become the emporer.  Right?  Character stories are the stuff Star wars is about.  Well, that and bright lights and explosions.

Anyway, about the second time I watched Episode 4, I was irritated by the death star that had just moved across the galaxy then having to wait for the moon to clear the planet before they could blow it up. I decided at that point, I wouldn't question things like "How can the people on this planet see the death beams from the battle moon blow up a planet in a different star system?"  The travel time/size of the galaxy/everything is nearby/ stuff bothers me, but whatever.

I still like Daisy Ridley/Rey.  She is cool.