Stand Your Ground in Naples

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jan/03/collier-judge-upholds-stand-your-ground-defense-ca/?partner=popular

"NAPLES — A 15-year-old who fatally stabbed his school mate will no longer face criminal prosecution.

A judge’s ruling, made public Tuesday, granted a motion to dismiss the second-degree murder charge against Jorge Saavedra in the death of 16-year-old Dylan Nuno on the grounds that he acted in self-defense under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law. The State Attorney’s Office has indicated that it will not appeal the ruling."

I'm never happy that someone had to die, but I whole heartily support this ruling. It sounds like Nuno was a classic bully (completely with his friends and family instantly denying he ever bullied anyone) and found out what happens when people fight back.

at a loss of words on this one

I agree, it's sad that a kid had to die. No way around that.

That being said, there are people in this world who think because they're bigger and stronger than you, they can make you do whatever they want. They will bully you and make your life miserable. When you fight back, if you don't win, it makes things worse. If the kid is scrawny and has no way in hell of winning a fight, he will turn to using a weapon as his only line of defense/offense. If/when you're scared of getting the everliving crap beaten out of you and you think this guy is going to kill you, then you revert to instinct. If I have a knife and someone much larger than me attacks me, damn right they're getting cut.

I agree with the verdict 100%

I'm OK with all of it up to the "stabbed him 12 times in the chest." Of course I have no way of knowing if that was 12 times after he was down or 12 times in the course of the guy trying to beat him up. If the other guy kept coming after the first stab then it's just Darwin at work.

Judging by the image shown of the kid that got killed, it looks like he was either a Latin King, or a Latin King wannabe. The hanky in his shirt folded like a crown is a giveaway. I could be wrong, but it looks like it was intentionally folded that way.

It is sad that a young kid had to die, but I can't blame the kid who "held his ground".

I love that the newspaper chose to show pictures of the Dylan Nuno looking all well-dressed and smiling, and Jorge Saavedra's picture might as well be a mug shot. Nice bit ending with the attacker coming across as the victim, too.

There are no winners in this one. The only good that may come from it is if somewhere a bully stops because he realizes there is a very good chance his victim may be able to legally even the odds.

What are the odds of the Nuno Family being able to make this a civil suit?

He punched the kid in the back of the head. Sounds like no big deal until you read this:

http://www.ajc.com/news/cherokee/12-years-ago-schoolmates-774240.html

In this case the kid being bullied was killed.

Sounds like the bully in the OP chose the wrong kid.

I'm going to go off on a tangent here and lay the blame on the way kids are being raised today. Too many kids being raised by daycare and a DVD player on repeat. I know there are people out there that have no choice but to have both parents work and I understand that. But maybe, just maybe putting your kids ahead of your career ambitions is the more important thing to do.

slefain wrote: I'm going to go off on a tangent here and lay the blame on the way kids are being raised today. Too many kids being raised by daycare and a DVD player on repeat. I know there are people out there that have no choice but to have both parents work and I understand that. But maybe, just maybe putting your kids ahead of your career ambitions is the more important thing to do.

I disagree. I think this is a much older problem. Kids have been fighting in school for a very long time, and I think it's bullE36 M3. To older generations it was just sort of a way of life, you took it to the play ground after school and sorted out your differences. And everyone feels good because it proves how manly you are that you fought the bully and it turns into a Disney movie and everyone is friends. But it's absolute bullE36 M3 IMO. Often the bully wins. Or doesn't stop bullying, or his friends get involved, or he brings a weapon, or whatever.

I think the problem is too many people still think school yard fights are alright. I also think the problem is people want to refuse to believe bullies like this exist. They're nice, polite kids who do well in school and then bully a kid on the bus ride home. And people refuse to see the problem.

Drewsifer wrote:

slefain wrote: I'm going to go off on a tangent here and lay the blame on the way kids are being raised today. Too many kids being raised by daycare and a DVD player on repeat. I know there are people out there that have no choice but to have both parents work and I understand that. But maybe, just maybe putting your kids ahead of your career ambitions is the more important thing to do.

I disagree. I think this is a much older problem. Kids have been fighting in school for a very long time, and I think it's bullE36 M3. To older generations it was just sort of a way of life, you took it to the play ground after school and sorted out your differences. And everyone feels good because it proves how manly you are that you fought the bully and it turns into a Disney movie and everyone is friends. But it's absolute bullE36 M3 IMO. Often the bully wins. Or doesn't stop bullying, or his friends get involved, or he brings a weapon, or whatever. I think the problem is too many people still think school yard fights are alright. I also think the problem is people want to refuse to believe bullies like this exist. They're nice, polite kids who do well in school and then bully a kid on the bus ride home. And people refuse to see the problem.

I won't disagree. There have always been bullys, but we are hitting a perfect storm that is making it a deadlier game. And you are right, the "Eddie Haskell" Jekyll/Hyde kids are the ones you never see coming.

I should have gone deeper with my explanation. I noticed years ago that there was something different about the kids that had been born in the 80s. Really self absorbed, all about themselves, could do no wrong, and totally unaccountable for their actions. I realized that was when dropping your kids at daycare became a normal thing to do. Then comes the helicopter parenting. When your kid is being told constantly it isn't their fault and that mom & dad will fix it, you end up with little sociopaths running around. I won't take the video game angle here but there is something wrong with a 7-year old who is highly adept at Call of Duty.

Some of the worst bullies I have ever seen were at the most expensive private school in Georgia (where my wife worked). Try to discipline the little psycho and you can guarantee being called into the headmaster's office to apologize to the PARENT for holding their child accountable.

On the other hand if you don't run into a few bullies in your day you will grow up thinking it's a Barney world full of goodness and light. Then when you have terrorists or people of other religions who won't tolerate you, you don't really believe they could be that way and with just a little sit down talk you could all get along. Oh wait! That's happening now.

You need bullies for people to understand we're not all alike and sometimes talking isn't the answer.

With that said I hated bullies when I was in school. I was 2 years younger than everyone in my class so I was always much smaller than everyone else.

Drewsifer wrote:

slefain wrote: I'm going to go off on a tangent here and lay the blame on the way kids are being raised today. Too many kids being raised by daycare and a DVD player on repeat. I know there are people out there that have no choice but to have both parents work and I understand that. But maybe, just maybe putting your kids ahead of your career ambitions is the more important thing to do.

I disagree. I think this is a much older problem. Kids have been fighting in school for a very long time, and I think it's bullE36 M3. To older generations it was just sort of a way of life, you took it to the play ground after school and sorted out your differences. And everyone feels good because it proves how manly you are that you fought the bully and it turns into a Disney movie and everyone is friends. But it's absolute bullE36 M3 IMO. Often the bully wins. Or doesn't stop bullying, or his friends get involved, or he brings a weapon, or whatever. I think the problem is too many people still think school yard fights are alright. I also think the problem is people want to refuse to believe bullies like this exist. They're nice, polite kids who do well in school and then bully a kid on the bus ride home. And people refuse to see the problem.

I agree with carguy and disagree with you. There will never be a utopian society where everyone gets along and there will be no fighting.

DirtyBird222 wrote:

Drewsifer wrote:

slefain wrote: I'm going to go off on a tangent here and lay the blame on the way kids are being raised today. Too many kids being raised by daycare and a DVD player on repeat. I know there are people out there that have no choice but to have both parents work and I understand that. But maybe, just maybe putting your kids ahead of your career ambitions is the more important thing to do.

I disagree. I think this is a much older problem. Kids have been fighting in school for a very long time, and I think it's bullE36 M3. To older generations it was just sort of a way of life, you took it to the play ground after school and sorted out your differences. And everyone feels good because it proves how manly you are that you fought the bully and it turns into a Disney movie and everyone is friends. But it's absolute bullE36 M3 IMO. Often the bully wins. Or doesn't stop bullying, or his friends get involved, or he brings a weapon, or whatever. I think the problem is too many people still think school yard fights are alright. I also think the problem is people want to refuse to believe bullies like this exist. They're nice, polite kids who do well in school and then bully a kid on the bus ride home. And people refuse to see the problem.

I agree with carguy and disagree with you. There will never be a utopian society where everyone gets along and there will be no fighting.

So what is your solution? Or is the old school fighting it out method ok with you?

If both of these had gotten more trophies for just showing up to boost the ego.. errrr self esteem none of this would have happened.

Why does everybody get so mad about kids getting trophies? Every kid has a few and no kid is impressed by them. It is the adults that seem to be all worked up about it. And it isn't a new thing. Everybody on my peewee football team got trophies something like 35 years ago.

Otto Maddox wrote: Why does everybody get so mad about kids getting trophies? Every kid has a few and no kid is impressed by them. It is the adults that seem to be all worked up about it. And it isn't a new thing. Everybody on my peewee football team got trophies something like 35 years ago.

Its not that they get them its why they get them.

Hmm. I'm all for self defense, the right to bear arms, the right to arm bears, and all that. I think this could have been resolved without killing him, but I wasn't there. I was the "victim" of a bully throughout my childhood. His last name started with the same letter as mine, and since there weren't many kids who's names did, he ALWAYS sat next to, or behind me. That guy tormented me for years. I ran into him a few years ago. Turns out he now a UFC trainer, and a great guy. We've been good friends ever since, and I wasn't scarred for life because of it.
Killing is wrong, that's how I look at it. I don't at all blame the kid for defending himself, I just don't agree that it required killing the other kid.

I graduated from high school in 1963. That's 49 years ago. We had school yard fights, bus fights, and gym fights. Worst ones I got into were on the bus. He was 6'3", 235#, me 6', 175#. This happened as a result of him bullying me. Probably 4-5 times. No real winner, no real blood, but a couple of black eyes. Looking back, I can't understand why the bus driver did nothing, as these battles went on for a while. Now, police, fire rescue, and homeland security would be on scene. My favorite one was another bully, but 5'8", 140#. That one lasted exactly 5 seconds. In the gym, with a coach watching. BUT, no weapons at any of these. Was that better? Don't know. But school fights have always been around, as have bullies, but it does seem to be getting worse, or is bullying becoming more respectable and common. I'm glad to be removed from it all.

Otto Maddox wrote:

DirtyBird222 wrote:

Drewsifer wrote:

slefain wrote: I'm going to go off on a tangent here and lay the blame on the way kids are being raised today. Too many kids being raised by daycare and a DVD player on repeat. I know there are people out there that have no choice but to have both parents work and I understand that. But maybe, just maybe putting your kids ahead of your career ambitions is the more important thing to do.

I disagree. I think this is a much older problem. Kids have been fighting in school for a very long time, and I think it's bullE36 M3. To older generations it was just sort of a way of life, you took it to the play ground after school and sorted out your differences. And everyone feels good because it proves how manly you are that you fought the bully and it turns into a Disney movie and everyone is friends. But it's absolute bullE36 M3 IMO. Often the bully wins. Or doesn't stop bullying, or his friends get involved, or he brings a weapon, or whatever. I think the problem is too many people still think school yard fights are alright. I also think the problem is people want to refuse to believe bullies like this exist. They're nice, polite kids who do well in school and then bully a kid on the bus ride home. And people refuse to see the problem.

I agree with carguy and disagree with you. There will never be a utopian society where everyone gets along and there will be no fighting.

So what is your solution? Or is the old school fighting it out method ok with you?

It seems as if it would be a problem with you if I did :).

I met my best friend in 6th grade after we had a school yard fight, to this day he's like a brother to me. So they aren't all bad.

And if you think it's possible to have a society without violence, you must be on some whacky ass drugs. It's part of human nature, but it has been amplified due to the lack of parenting, horrible parenting, exposure to violence at a young age, etc. I mean thousands of years ago the man didn't have XB360 and MW3 to taint the mind's of their young but there were still murderers, thieves, and criminals. Poop happens and a little scrap in the school yard should only humble you and your big ego as well as make you a bit stronger and tougher. They should never escalate to the point where someone is getting stabbed 12 times.

bravenrace wrote: Hmm. I'm all for self defense, the right to bear arms, the right to arm bears, and all that. I think this could have been resolved without killing him, but I wasn't there. I was the "victim" of a bully throughout my childhood. His last name started with the same letter as mine, and since there weren't many kids who's names did, he ALWAYS sat next to, or behind me. That guy tormented me for years. I ran into him a few years ago. Turns out he now a UFC trainer, and a great guy. We've been good friends ever since, and I wasn't scarred for life because of it. Killing is wrong, that's how I look at it. I don't at all blame the kid for defending himself, I just don't agree that it required killing the other kid.

I don't necessarily agree with killing him either, but if he stood up for himself and beat the bully then next time(and there would be a next time) he would be defending himself against the bully and some friends. Don't forget who the victim was in this situation. People make choices and for the choices there are consequences. Proceed accordingly.

carguy123 wrote: I'm OK with all of it up to the "stabbed him 12 times in the chest." Of course I have no way of knowing if that was 12 times after he was down or 12 times in the course of the guy trying to beat him up. If the other guy kept coming after the first stab then it's just Darwin at work.

Not surprising. Paxton Quigley says, "in many fights 20 to 30 knife wounds have to be inflicted before the opponent will stop coming at you." (Of course, she's talking about women resisting attackers, not the typical schoolyard bully.)

In reply to DirtyBird222:

I was actually interested in your opinion. I actually rewrote the question trying to remove any "opinion" from it but apparently I failed. I tend to agree what you are saying, but obviously this situation progressed way beyond boys being boys.

Bullies have been around forever. Due to my birthdate I was almost a year younger than most of my classmates. That made me the little chubby kid in the class. The class bully had been held back a grade so he was 2 years older than me. I only saw him at school but that was bad enough. The detensions, etc that he got had no effect on his behavior.

One day in 5th grade (1954) our class was playing softball at recess. When it was my turn to bat he decided that he was going to bat. I was at the plate when he knocked me to the ground.

I still see him every 5 years or so at our class reunions. He was a sucessful business man and is now retired. He has had knee replacemant surgery and no longer walks with a limp, but he still avoids me at the reunions.