Stand Your Ground in Naples

An old GF was out with a friend one night when they bumped into a guy we all knew from high school. I knew the guy was a bully, he had been that way since middle school and I just avoided him. I wasn't there to warn them.

Long story short, since they knew him they said 'OK' when he offered them a ride home. He drove them out into East Bumberkeley, told them 'put out or get out'. They got out, had to walk nearly a mile and a half to the nearest house, they borrowed the phone and called for a ride. To this day it amazes me that nothing worse happened.

There was no real sense calling the police. Times have changed but back then it would have been 'he said she said', wasted a bunch of time and accomplished zero except to have the guy laying in wait for these two girls. As luck would have it, the other girl's older brother got to bully boy before I did. No killing took place but he knew better than to get anywhere near those two girls ever again.

There's also the side of the story that the wimpy kid might not have thought his puny little knife would actually kill him and then there's the video and tv deaths they see so much of that makes it appear death isn't forever or that big of a deal.

I'm of course presuming he had the typical pocket knife.

For now anyway, I'm glad I'll be raising our kids in North Georgia rather than South Florida. I've spent half my life in each place, and am happy I left that E36 M3 hole when I did. Sure, there will always be bullies, but gangs are a different story.

It says that there was history of harassment, the kid had taken different busses in the past and got off at a different stop to avoid a confrontation... deceased and a group followed the freshman off the bus and punched him in the back of the head. The freshman tried unsuccessfully to get away once before solving the problem using a different tactic.

I'd say somebody was persistent in looking for trouble and got more than they bargained for. Too bad, too sad.

If you're going to use a knife in a fight, know where to CUT, not where to STAB. Cutting tendons or muscle groups will stop your attacker, usually without killing them. Slicing across the hand/wrist, tricep, and just above the knee will put your attacker on the ground and they won't die (unless you let the wrist wound bleed out).

Learned this in a self defense class taught by a Spec Ops guy. Stabs cause small deep wounds, cuts are more effective in getting the guy to stop.

Anyway, I agree that the story turns the attacker into the victim and makes him look all sweet and dressed up when he clearly was acting like a jerk. I had a nice point to make, but I've had to stop writing this like 4 times to do actual work and I've forgotten what that point was...

Carry on...

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: It says that there was history of harassment, the kid had taken different busses in the past and got off at a different stop to avoid a confrontation... deceased and a group followed the freshman off the bus and punched him in the back of the head. The freshman tried unsuccessfully to get away once before solving the problem using a different tactic. I'd say somebody was persistent in looking for trouble and got more than they bargained for. Too bad, too sad.

This...

unk577 wrote:

bravenrace wrote: Hmm. I'm all for self defense, the right to bear arms, the right to arm bears, and all that. I think this could have been resolved without killing him, but I wasn't there. I was the "victim" of a bully throughout my childhood. His last name started with the same letter as mine, and since there weren't many kids who's names did, he ALWAYS sat next to, or behind me. That guy tormented me for years. I ran into him a few years ago. Turns out he now a UFC trainer, and a great guy. We've been good friends ever since, and I wasn't scarred for life because of it. Killing is wrong, that's how I look at it. I don't at all blame the kid for defending himself, I just don't agree that it required killing the other kid.

I don't necessarily agree with killing him either, but if he stood up for himself and beat the bully then next time(and there would be a next time) he would be defending himself against the bully and some friends. Don't forget who the victim was in this situation. People make choices and for the choices there are consequences. Proceed accordingly.

I am in no way the type that blames the victim and defends the criminal, although I can understand how it might have sounded that way. I have no problem with him defending himself, and I said that I wasn't there so maybe he had to. I'm just saying that it's possible he could have stopped it by injuring the other guy instead of killing him, that's all. And the bottom line is that I'm glad he got the guy instead of the other way around.

The fact that we can get news from south Nowhere in 2 seconds on the internet has made it seem like a growing problem; it isn't. This sort of crap has always happened.

To the point, Hal implies he took a bat to somebody's knee. I know of an episode where somebody used a big stick to defend themselves after they got hit in the head with a thrown brick via sneak attack and then set upon by two bullies at once.

Both of those would have been on CNN today. 30+ years ago, they were dealt with on a local level.

Like I said, there are no winners in this whole sad thing. I do agree with the sentiment that the bully picked on the wrong guy and got way more than he bargained for. If someone is going to play that sort of stupid game, they need to realize that at some point their luck will run out and that you cannot judge a book by its cover.

I saw a guy in a bar giving a one armed guy a hard time. I do not know what started it, whether the guy was just a bully or what history the two may have had beforehand, but I do know that when it turned into a fight the one armed guy whipped the other guy's ass, to the point where I was wondering if he was going to really kill him. No weapons involved, he just beat the living crap out of him with the one good arm and his feet. Several other bar patrons separated the two before it got to the point where somebody would die.

Joe Gearin wrote: It is sad that a young kid had to die, but I can't blame the kid who "held his ground".

I know some folk will think I a shiny happy person for say this .... but as far as I'm concerned .... in this particular case no it's not ... the chances of his "outgrowing" this kind of behavior is almost zero

wb, you have a very valid point. Sometimes these types run into someone who beats some sense into them, then sometimes they don't and keep right on truckin'.

Dealing with my bully at school taught me a lot, but not as much as it taught him.

The E36 M3 that gets me is the portrayal of the bully as the victim. Take little Zangief for example. Kid was a chubby kid much like myself, got picked on by another little punk at the school for a long time. Finally has enough, picks him up, and bodyslams the bully. Bully blows an ankle, staggers to his feet and goes away. Next thing we know, little piunk is attempting to be all over the news claiming he was the victim, and he's been victimized all his life. Personally, I say you got your ass handed to you, and now you know better. And if you don't, someone may eventually have a weapon.

Conquest351 wrote: Slicing across the hand/wrist, tricep,

But as my Kali teacher taught me, these look like defensive wounds, like the guy was holding his hands up going "no, stop!".

That won't look good in court.

I agree, there was a time when this stuff was just a fight in the schoolyard but I saw it change in the time I was in school.

When I ended up in a fight in middle school, it was just two guys and its over.

Now, if you end up in a fight with the bully, it's him and when you do start to kick his ass, all his chickenE36 M3 friends jump in and help.

Better to stab the bastard up under the ribs and give him a punctured lung or put a hole in his diaphragm. That usually slows him down.

I have discovered that nothing stops a guy cold as fast as a good, hard, backhand to the face.

Usually he's so busy trying to understand the fact that you just slapped him, it give you a few seconds to run or do some real damage.

Sorry, after receiving plenty of bullying in school, I'm a bit bitter.

Shawn

When I was a freshman in HS, a student was punched once in the head, went into a coma, and died a few days later.

Here's a summary for anyone interested

In reply to MitchellC:

2 separate stories of a single punch turning fatal, Damn...

wbjones wrote:

Joe Gearin wrote: It is sad that a young kid had to die, but I can't blame the kid who "held his ground".

I know some folk will think I a shiny happy person for say this .... but as far as I'm concerned .... in this particular case no it's not ... the chances of his "outgrowing" this kind of behavior is almost zero

This.

Point 1:

My biggest problem with "let them work it out" is it only works when the kids are roughly the same size. It doesn't matter what you know or how much you know, a big enough size differences results in Goliath winning 9 times out of 10. And these are the stories I feel most people ignore is the really small kid who is physically incapable of defending himself against a bully so they have to use a weapon (or more often than not, put up with it).

Point 2:

I think every state should have Stand Your Ground laws.

Drewsifer is right. In the case MitchellC linked, the kid who died was 15, his attacker was 19, chances are the 19 y/o was at least 10% bigger than the 15 y/o. In an uneven size match like that, there's a much greater likelihood of the smaller kid getting seriously injured or killed.

The original story says the kid who was being bullied had tried numerous times to stay away from the bully but with no success. So he took the only option he had left: he leveled the playing field.

It also says the attacker had been transferred from another school because he had been the victim of bullying there. Since E36 M3 flows downhill, I guess he decided to find someone smaller/weaker to beat up on. Or (and this is more likely) he was a bully at the other school as well and it was 'spun' so that he could get into another school. Many times schools will not take troublemakers from other schools, I know for a fact that up here if you are transferring then the first school will be contacted and it is very possible to be refused admittance if something like that has been going on.

'Stand Your Ground' is already sorta covered in the legal system; if you are being attacked and you injure/kill your attacker it is considered extenuating circumstances. In the past adults in the kid's situation have been found not guilty of assault and murder for that reason. So IMHO there's no need for new laws.

Really, the only reason they put up with it is because everyone pounds it into their head that violence is wrong for any reason. I was raised to not let anyone treat me like E36 M3, and anyone who puts their hands on me is an open target for retaliation. If they're bigger than you, fight dirty.

I was maybe 140 pounds at the start of high school, the first and only person who tried to be my bully(fatass in and out of juvie and correctional schools) got a 2x4 to the face when he showed up at my house to kick my ass.

That would deter anyone pretty quick. Not to mention the word gets around.

I was a pretty big kid, I generally was a few inches taller and maybe 10 pounds heavier than other kids in the same grade and I guess I didn't catch a lot of crap for that reason. But I still I got into some grade school scraps, after one of those my dad told me 'I better not ever hear that you threw the first punch. But you better throw the last one'.

The high school bullies pretty much left me alone (except in one instance), maybe I was just lucky or they figured the big oaf wasn't worth messing with. The one who did hit me did it in retaliation for me running into him on the basketball court during a game. He hit me in the back of the head from behind (sound familiar?) in the locker room, it just so happened the coach was standing maybe 8 feet behind him and he didn't know it. That all ended pretty quick, the coach hauled him to the principal's office and he was out of school for about a week. Last I heard that guy was doing hard time for dope dealing.

He transferred in from another area, nobody ever bothered messing with me before. Not entirely sure why he had an issue with me, but given how much of a smartass I was(am) I'm kinda surprised more people didn't dislike me intensely.

I think what makes this such a big deal is that the discussion on a tiny car forum can go two pages in just over a day!

Joey

mndsm wrote: The E36 M3 that gets me is the portrayal of the bully as the victim. Take little Zangief for example. Kid was a chubby kid much like myself, got picked on by another little punk at the school for a long time. Finally has enough, picks him up, and bodyslams the bully. Bully blows an ankle, staggers to his feet and goes away. Next thing we know, little piunk is attempting to be all over the news claiming he was the victim, and he's been victimized all his life. Personally, I say you got your ass handed to you, and now you know better. And if you don't, someone may eventually have a weapon.

For those who haven't seen that: Little Zangief

The original unedited (I absolutely prefer the first vid though!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjvXoK9JKEg

Trans_Maro wrote:

Conquest351 wrote: Slicing across the hand/wrist, tricep,

But as my Kali teacher taught me, these look like defensive wounds, like the guy was holding his hands up going "no, stop!". That won't look good in court.

The wrist slice was where he was showing us that when someone presents a weapon such as a broken beer bottle, knife, stick, bad, etc. and they swing at you. That's your first cut. From there you move in with your left shoulder and slice their tricep and put your left shoulder on their right, where you just sliced. Then reach down and cut across their leg just above the knee.

I can see how that would look like defensive wounds if no weapon were present.