State Farm "Save and Drive" issues

maschinenbau said:

I too have been declining the SF app. Perhaps I should consider it, but I track my daily. Wonder how low I can get that score?

I'm about to find out at lunch. I have to go get a prescription that is 4 round abouts away each way. 

In reply to RevRico :

The steady cam mount would be worth experimenting with

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

The part I cannot link to your logic (which seems otherwise solid) is that the algorithms very strongly discourage any kind of rapid acceleration - lateral or longitudinal - right? So how does it know you slammed on the breaks because the guy in front of you did something bone-headed? From the wording on these devices, I'd expect to get scolded for not hitting him. 

In reply to SV reX :

I can trick the app by jerking my leg with my phone in my pocket.  The body rolls, I roll, and the accelerometer thinks I'm turning faster than I am.  In the Lincoln (which handles much flatter, has good seat bolsters, and I corner faster) I never get a cornering notification.

Phone accelerometers aren't really accelerometers, they're position sensors.  It's the same sensor that flips your screen when you turn the phone, so it's not really a true accelerometer.  It's more like the bubble in a level

RevRico said:

In reply to SV reX :

Didn't these systems initially use an OBD2 dongle? Do they still?

I feel like progressive did when they started it, but I haven't seen ads or commercials in a long enough time to not know anymore.

The early Progressive ones were an OBD2 dongle. I don't think they required an app. This no longer monitors the car at all. Just g-sensor and GPS

RevRico said:

In reply to SV reX :

Didn't these systems initially use an OBD2 dongle? Do they still?

I feel like progressive did when they started it, but I haven't seen ads or commercials in a long enough time to not know anymore.

I thought that too, but TIL they use your phone

cyow5 said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

The part I cannot link to your logic (which seems otherwise solid) is that the algorithms very strongly discourage any kind of rapid acceleration - lateral or longitudinal - right? So how does it know you slammed on the breaks because the guy in front of you did something bone-headed? From the wording on these devices, I'd expect to get scolded for not hitting him. 

Actually you'd get scolded AND hit him because the collision would set off the braking reminder. 

SV reX said:

RevRico said:

In reply to SV reX :

Didn't these systems initially use an OBD2 dongle? Do they still?

I feel like progressive did when they started it, but I haven't seen ads or commercials in a long enough time to not know anymore.

I thought that too, but TIL they use your phone

Correct.  They don't even actually connect to bluetooth.  The app sees when the dot appears in your bluetooth list and sends a notification that says "drive safe and save is ready to record your trip."  Then it uses the phone's gps, location, and position sensor to monitor what is happening in the car.

There are settings you can customize, like you can set it so it doesn't record if you are the passenger.

The other option is to just turn off your phone or leave it at home and it can't record.

I wonder what it would read if you oriented the phone in a pouch hanging from a pivot that let it swing so all smoothly applied G-loading registered only as gravity?

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Your logic is very sound.  The insurance companies wouldn't use these if they didn't save them money (reduce accidents)

However, I also think it's foolish to think the insurance companies won't use this data for nefarious purposes in the long run. Regardless of the laws, I'm certain they would use it to raise rates over time. 
 

(Im just as happy with conspiracy theories as they next guy)

cyow5 said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

The part I cannot link to your logic (which seems otherwise solid) is that the algorithms very strongly discourage any kind of rapid acceleration - lateral or longitudinal - right? So how does it know you slammed on the breaks because the guy in front of you did something bone-headed? From the wording on these devices, I'd expect to get scolded for not hitting him. 

If you perceive it as scolding, then yes.  That's what they want...  Your perception that you need to drive like you're scared to death of hitting someone, getting hit by someone, or (gasp) lowering your score in the app.  Their numbers suggest that this behavior will lead to fewer claims and more money in their pocket, and since the app is still going strong, it must be working.

If you ran into a wall, it would probably say "you hit the brakes too hard."  It's a pretty dumb app, so don't put so much stress into the score.  When you treat it like it's scolding you when you did nothing wrong, that's exactly why the program works.  Just ignore it.  Drive like a rallyX racer and you still save money.

In reply to bobzilla :

So I mentioned that situation because it happened to me two days ago. I was going to turn left, and a truck to my right (straight lane) turned in front of me to turn left. The light turned yellow, and he was able to stop immediately because he was already barely moving. I was going plenty fast enough to clear the intersection, and I had to engage ABS to stop, my collision warning yelling at me the whole time (both my wife and the truck are equipped with it, apparently). I stopped in time because I had seen it coming, but barely. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Fair enough. Had I been going much slower through the intersection, the 'scold' would've been lower. That's rarely untrue, that's for sure. 

I still don't like the idea of insurance tracking me though. I haven't had a ticket in a decade or so, so I don't drive like a felon on the street, but I still don't get a lot of miles out of my tires either, haha. 

SV reX said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Your logic is very sound.  The insurance companies wouldn't use these if they didn't save them money (reduce accidents)

However, I also think it's foolish to think the insurance companies wouldn't use this data for nefarious purposes. Regardless of the laws, I'm certain they would use it to raise rates over time. 
 

(Im just as happy with conspiracy theories as they next guy)

The way I see it is, if all the data that gets collected on all of us every second of every day were used for nefarious purposes, we'd all be dead.  You get the occasional hacker who steals an identity or steals your money with data they collect, but given the shear amount of data that is collected and the relative absence of it coming back to haunt the individual, I'm not worried about it.  If someone wants to sit at a computer and make fun of my driving, I hope they have fun.  I don't believe they are, but it's probably less intrusive to me than a forum website logging that I'm using Edge instead of Chrome.

If they raise rates based on the data they collect from the app, they would be in violation of federal law.  They might have a way around it, but they haven't used it on me.

OK, let me come clean here.... the wife is a TERRIBLE driver as she has aged. Her East Coast style has come back hard (tailgating, swerving, excessive speeding, paying zero attention to anything) but her drive is all interstate and a smooth straight state road. She gets a "perfect score" every trip because she now keeps it under 80 on the interstate. 

We can all see where this is going.....I drive 5-7 over, leave lots of room, don't change lanes like it's my main income stream and am always looking as far ahead as I can. I actually drove our Sierra from our house to my work with the busted brake line touching the brakes a total of twice. But she can't see that there is a wall of stopped cars 10 car lengths ahead as she's pushing the car in front of her..... This cannot stand. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

If they raise rates based on the data they collect from the app, they would be in violation of federal law.  They might have a way around it, but they haven't used it on me.

The easy loophole is one they already use - globally raise everyone's rates who do not use the app and then do not lower those who use the app and drive aggressively. 

In reply to cyow5 :

yeah we have had steady increases over the last 2 years. 

While I understand your displeasure at rising insurance rates, allowing the insurance company to track you isn't a great way forward. At the very best you get a few bucks off your premiums; the reality is, though, that they can also geolocate you and sell that data to advertisers and other trackers. It also opens a HUGE can of worms with regards to privacy and potential data breaches.

These devices do incentivize you to become rolling traffic blocks though, yes. For "safety." Exceed 0.2 G in any axis at any time and you're a clear danger to others, citizen. Safe drivers enter turns at 5mph and tiptoe around them. Obviously. 

As far as the tracking goes, much worse is done every day through my iPhail. Just having it on or taking a picture or answering a text etc has all the same information. While I am not happy about it, it has become the new way of life. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I don't have the same level of trust in my insurance company that you do. 
 

I couldn't care less about someone spying on my driving habits. But my recent experiences with State Farm has made me aware they will use any excuse they can to minimize their risk and maximize their profits.  My 30 year history with them with no claims makes no difference- they will put their trust on their algorithms no matter what.

They put me at personal risk by canceling both my auto and my homeowners without notice for minor discrepancies that were not my fault. I don't like being a pawn in their profit game.

I don't need to give them more ammo.

In reply to bobzilla :

Have you considered having 2 different policies for you and your wife?

OT:  i have four cars with broad form collision and i pay $4000 every six months, and that's a competitive rate from what i hear.  michigan no-fault can eat all the dicks.

In reply to cyow5 :

it doesn't....

I too didn't realize these are now phone based, not obd based.  

Your insurance rates are greatly affected by zip code.  I suspect that the insurance companies are very interested in where your phone spends the night.  

This seems like it could be very detrimental to business travelers who often find themselves in urban areas as opposed to the suburban or rural areas they "live" in.  

Add me to the group that doesn't trust the company to use this information in your best interest and not their own best interest.  

SV reX said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Have you considered having 2 different policies for you and your wife?

Then you lose the multi driver discount. 
 

but.... apparently the braking threshold is much higher than I would have guessed. Had to avoid an idiot not looking as they pulled out in front of me and braked hard. According to this it didn't happen:

But I did blow every roundabout apparently. And turning after being stopped was too sharp. I was stopped. Well I guess now I have a new game. The distraction one won't be an issue because when I'm driving I'm driving.