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DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath SuperDork
12/24/20 11:45 p.m.

Hey guys, 

I've been reading a lot of the stuff here in the Off-Topic forum and it seems like many of you have to fight to keep the mental health in order.  This isn't really surprising in that we're currently enjoying the fruits of COVID and the fact that the people here tend to be intelligent. Intelligent people have imagination. Imagination - unless you learn how to use it properly - is a great way to make yourself feel depressed, hopeless and impotent.  

So, before I explain what has worked for me, a little background. I am not and never have been chemically depressed. When I was fighting with depression it was from outside factors. For me, these were living on the edge of homelessness for several years, a steady stream of credible death threats against my family members, family members experiencing frequent or long-lasting psychotic breaks, loved ones mutilating themselves and a string of pretty brutal betrayals by people I'd trusted. I am not a psychologist and I'm not a pharmacologist. My work is in education and my area of expertise is philosophy of education.  I'm not claiming to be an expert on mental health. I am claiming to be a resilient son of a bitch and, more to the point, I am claiming that stoicism helped me to become resilient.

Stoicism as a mature school of philosophy is not about suppressing emotions or never smiling. Instead, it is an ethical system predicated on the following principles:

1. Happiness is the state of circumstance exceeding expectation. If, for example, you expect to be kidnapped by terrorists but instead have a normal day at work, you will feel grateful and happy. 
2. Unhappiness is the state of circumstance lagging behind expectation. If, for example, you expect to win the lotterry but instead have a normal day at work, you will feel cheated and resentful. 
3. The only legitimate targets of expectation are the things in our control. We might set expectations about our thoughts, our ways of interpreting the world, our orientations and our desires because these things are completely within our control. 
4. Things out of our control are not legitimate targets of expectation and lead only to despair. We should not set expectations of other people, of the stock market, of human rights or freedoms or dignities or comforts. We should not expect cardiovascular health or long lives. We should not expect admiration or justice because these things are not within our control.
5. Since circumstance is outside our control, we should expect nothing of it. Since expectations are within our control, we ought to discipline and hone them. Being happy, therefore, is the art of expecting nothing of the world and much of oneself. 

For me, the path to stoicism started from an intense anger at the world. I looked at the shoes I'd repaired four times, the blue jeans with holes in the crotches and the dumpsters I'd been diving and hated people who were living well. I hated the ways they assumed me stupid, I hated them for hiding the women and sneaking inside to warn the neighbors, I wanted to punish them for failing to embody the equality, freedom and human rights garbage I'd learned to expect in school. I hated these people for failing to meet my bullE36 M3 expectations for about 3 years before a thought dawned on me.

"I'm subhuman." 

I didn't mean this in an emo sort of way. It was not a synonym for "everything sucks" and it wasn't a cry for help. It was a recognition that the "human rights, equality and dignity all human beings are entitled to" didn't apply to me. It wasn't until later I discovered those things don't apply to anyone, and therefore everyone was "subhuman," but even an imperfect rejection of "the way things should be" went miles in improving the quality of my life. Marcus Aurelius, dying slowly in a German swamp, said the same thing much more elegantly.

“Calm acceptance of what comes from a cause outside yourself, and justice in all activity of your own causation.”

This rejection of "the way it ought to be" releases so many burdens it's difficult to express in writing. There is no imperative to hate evil doers for "doing what they ought not." There is no sense in hating corporations or governments or oppressors. If you prefer to change them, go for it, as long as you remember it is mere preference and that there are lots of things we prefer and can't have. There is, as Marcus says, a calm acceptance of the things outside yourself. There is, with practice, an ability to love what is rather than wasting time on fantasies of what should be.

And when "should" ceases to exist, forgiveness becomes easy. The burning righteousness, the impotent flailing, the pathetic wishing after a better world, we can replace that stuff with gratitude for what we have. We can stop looking at our families, our pets, our possessions as things we need or are entitled to and start looking at them as unearned gifts on temporary loan from a universe that owes us nothing. It teaches us to expect death and, in doing so, let go of fear. It teaches us that we are all, fundamentally, playing with house money.

I hope you all have a great Christmas,
​​​​​​​Ben  

 

barefootskater (Shaun)
barefootskater (Shaun) UberDork
12/24/20 11:50 p.m.

Thank you

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/25/20 12:02 a.m.

I appreciate this very much.

It speaks very dear to a place I'm in, myself.

Thank you.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
12/25/20 12:06 a.m.

I can and have forgiven almost everyone who has harmed me in my life. All of it. The only person I have yet to forgive is myself. That is my struggle.  That is my goal now, and for the future: self acceptance. Once I do that I will be unstoppable. 

Well spoken. 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/25/20 8:26 a.m.

I have been thinking a lot about this with the crap going on in my life. 

It is so much easier to just fix your shoe for the fourth time than it is to deal with the rationalization and anger of the expectation of new shoes. 

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/25/20 9:02 a.m.

I'm on a similar path albeit farther behind and just learning to live in the now and be happy with what is versus projecting what should or could or will be/was living in the past or future.  
 

the imagination is a powerful tool for light and darkness alike.  Mine can lift me up and give me the ideas to pull off insane projects or do super thoughtful things, and it can send me to the darkest recesses of hell and despair that have taken years to pull myself out of.  

I'm scarce around here right now because i think i've made many changes and breakthroughs and pulled myself out of the worst one yet and have been practicing mindfulness, meditation, and several facets of buddhism.  It's taken lots of time and hurt to figure out my inner self so that i can begin to project who I really am outward to the world
 

thank you for sharing!

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/25/20 9:16 a.m.

I have heard the term, but have never read the definition.  Turns out I am almost a stoic...until we get to forgiving individuals.  Do me wrong, I don't forgive, and I don't forget.  I also don't dwell on it in most cases.

Thanks for an interesting read.

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath SuperDork
12/25/20 10:40 a.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

I have been thinking a lot about this with the crap going on in my life. 

It is so much easier to just fix your shoe for the fourth time than it is to deal with the rationalization and anger of the expectation of new shoes. 

Exactly. And preferably to be thankful for the duct tape. 

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath SuperDork
12/25/20 10:42 a.m.
Streetwiseguy said:

I have heard the term, but have never read the definition.  Turns out I am almost a stoic...until we get to forgiving individuals.  Do me wrong, I don't forgive, and I don't forget.  I also don't dwell on it in most cases.

Thanks for an interesting read.

I really like Seneca if you want to read more. The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius are also excellent and, if you don't mind a bit more of a challenge, Epictetus is very good as well. 

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath SuperDork
12/25/20 10:44 a.m.
Patrick (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm on a similar path albeit farther behind and just learning to live in the now and be happy with what is versus projecting what should or could or will be/was living in the past or future.  
 

the imagination is a powerful tool for light and darkness alike.  Mine can lift me up and give me the ideas to pull off insane projects or do super thoughtful things, and it can send me to the darkest recesses of hell and despair that have taken years to pull myself out of.  

I'm scarce around here right now because i think i've made many changes and breakthroughs and pulled myself out of the worst one yet and have been practicing mindfulness, meditation, and several facets of buddhism.  It's taken lots of time and hurt to figure out my inner self so that i can begin to project who I really am outward to the world
 

thank you for sharing!

My pleasure. 

 

And you are absolutely correct to associate Stoicism and Buddhism. There's a ton of common ground and I enjoyed the Sayings of the Buddha very much.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
12/25/20 10:53 a.m.

It is a philosophy that would help a lot of people.  As I posted previously, there is the famous  quote / saying (and compacted version of what you said):

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
12/25/20 1:06 p.m.

There's a lot to be said for non-attachment. I find it incredibly comforting.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/25/20 1:20 p.m.

One of my goals in life, is to grow old without becoming an angry, bitter, calloused old man.

Not sure the exact plan to make that happen, but I am confident that this is a significant part of it.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/25/20 2:34 p.m.
Streetwiseguy said:

I have heard the term, but have never read the definition.  Turns out I am almost a stoic...until we get to forgiving individuals.  Do me wrong, I don't forgive, and I don't forget.  I also don't dwell on it in most cases.

Thanks for an interesting read.

You are halfway there. Anger is an energy drain. Not thinking about those who wronged you saves your energy for more productive things. Like car projects or finding a better job... or reading Marcus Aurelius.

Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) MegaDork
12/25/20 3:45 p.m.

Anger is an emotion that lets you recognize something isn't the way it should be and gives you the motivation to change it.

Anger is USEFUL.

Unchecked and uncontrolled anger is bad.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/25/20 3:56 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
Streetwiseguy said:

I have heard the term, but have never read the definition.  Turns out I am almost a stoic...until we get to forgiving individuals.  Do me wrong, I don't forgive, and I don't forget.  I also don't dwell on it in most cases.

Thanks for an interesting read.

You are halfway there. Anger is an energy drain. Not thinking about those who wronged you saves your energy for more productive things. Like car projects or finding a better job... or reading Marcus Aurelius.

Not anger, just an awareness of potential, based upon past circumstances.  To do otherwise would not be stoic, it would be foolish.

EastCoastMojo (Forum Supporter)
EastCoastMojo (Forum Supporter) Mod Squad
12/25/20 4:01 p.m.

This is an excellent thread. I would add two thoughts to the mix:

1) Anger never travels alone, it is always a companion to some other emotion such as insecurity, helplessness, meaninglessness, etc. Find and examine the root emotion when you are experiencing anger and that will lead you toward the solution. 

B) Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance. By this I mean default to giving someone the benefit of doubt rather than assume their actions were intended to harm. 

May the New Year bring you good fortune and peace.

ECM

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/25/20 5:42 p.m.
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) said:

Anger is an emotion that lets you recognize something isn't the way it should be and gives you the motivation to change it.

Anger is USEFUL.

Unchecked and uncontrolled anger is bad.

Anger drains you. Even if it is useful. Fear also drains you. They are strong emotions.

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
12/25/20 7:38 p.m.
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) said:

Anger is an emotion that lets you recognize something isn't the way it should be and gives you the motivation to change it.

Anger is USEFUL.

Unchecked and uncontrolled anger is bad.

The idea behind anger is to use the heat of anger to warm you rather than let it consume you.

 

I admit I never forget or forgive too but it's not anger I feel there. I feel you can really learn a lot about people by how they act when they feel there is no consequence. When I find someone unworthy of the energy I will put into them, I don't forgive or forget it and I put my energy elsewhere.

JThw8
JThw8 UltimaDork
12/25/20 8:00 p.m.

To give yourself the illusion you can live without anger or fear is foolhardy at best.   These are natural emotions which exist within you.   How you deal with them is what makes the difference but to think you can successfully and in good health suppress those or any other emotions is a setup for failure.

The will be in your life, you will feel them.  So if you stick your head in the sand and think "I am above that now" you will not prepare yourself to deal with them in a healthy way.

Life is full of emotion, without it, well it gets boring.  Failing to experience a full range of emotions is not a sign of good mental health, it is an illusion.   So experience it all but be cognizant of how you experience it and how you react to it.

Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) MegaDork
12/25/20 9:10 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) said:

Anger is an emotion that lets you recognize something isn't the way it should be and gives you the motivation to change it.

Anger is USEFUL.

Unchecked and uncontrolled anger is bad.

Anger drains you. Even if it is useful. Fear also drains you. They are strong emotions.

Oh, aye. Anger is a short term emotion. Anger might be what you feel when you say "this isn't right," but compassion and logic are what you use to solve the problems. 

My point is that I feel that anybody that says anger (or fear)  isn't useful might not have thought it through or may have led a life blissfully free of dangerous situations. 

 


 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/25/20 9:10 p.m.

I always believed that we make our own reality, and I think that holds true even if you don't believe it in a ephemeral sense like spirituatlity or Karma.

If human interaction has taught me anything, it's that we all have an amazing ability to formulate our own truths (the sum of those truths being our reality).  From your example, if you expect to win the lottery, but instead have a normal day at work, you can choose the truth of "this sucks," or you can choose the truth of "glad I have a job and can put food on the table."  We are constantly re-wiring our brains, so I try to be careful with what wires I connect when I choose how to react.

I had a real bout of negativity just a few weeks ago.  I decided to do all these home improvement projects while I was furloughed and the old saying about old houses really reared its head.  As in, a simple hardwood flooring job turned into a month of a complete subfloor/joist replacement and jacking up the house to rebuild the foundation.  As a result I got a little deeper into the bank account, got totally burnt out on home improvements, the truck died three times since March, I miss my friends, and I'm beginning to empath HARD on covid stuff.

Turns out, it really was triggered by one thing... trepidation concerning my ability to skillfully tackle one aspect of one project.  If I failed or messed something up, it would mean a buttload of teardown to fix the issue.  So I said screw it and realized that it's out of my control at this point.  If I fail at it, I'll learn from it and continue forward.  Suddenly, the rest of the stuff was peanuts.  I have a great family, a roof over my head, kick-butt friends, a cold beer in the fridge (an IPA, to boot), and enough money to pay the bills.

Life is pretty good.

I do agree with one thing in particular.  We have a LOT of remarkably intelligent people here.  Before I discovered GRM I was a frequent member at another forum that was a lot more of what you would expect from your stereotypical grease monkey mechanic.  Their off-topic forum was more likely to discuss which cigarette brand pairs well with Bud Light and wife beating. (Their consensus was Camel, in case you were curious.... and I'm totally joking).  Prior to that forum, I moderated a forum that was entirely populated with primarily people who bought their first wrench set and wanted to know how to make power with stickers and big chrome tips on their exhaust.  So to say I'm glad I found you guys is a monumental understatement.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/25/20 9:21 p.m.

I've stopped to think about things  I'm thankful for a few times today. A couple more than I normally would have, maybe once or twice because of this thread.

If nothing else, likely a very good habit.

RX Reven'
RX Reven' SuperDork
12/25/20 10:18 p.m.

Hi DaewooOfDeath,

First, thank you very much for the thought provoking post.

Honestly, I find your angst between what "should be" and what "is" troubling as it implies that you, and by extension everyone, has some unflappable moral compass reliably pointing the way to what is intrinsically "right".

On the one hand, I push back against the concept of moral equivalence (I do believe that there is a universal right and wrong) but on the other hand I believe that humans are incapable of perfection in any way including having a complete understanding of right and wrong.

As a result, I'm frightened when I hear language like what "should be"...I see that as leap frogging right over the litigation phase and rolling straight into the sentencing phase.  i.e., you "should be" doing something but you're not so here's what "I've" decided your punishment will be.

Again, thank you for a great post...I just want to be very careful with the term "should be".  "Should be" based on what objectively measurable, unambiguous, universally agreed upon criteria are you referring to??? - rhetorical question, there is none and there never will be.

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