Take your AWD on a 4X4 road and get up to a $5000 fine from the Dept of the Interior?

Toyman! said:

Keith Tanner said:

I know this is meant to be a "let's all get upset at government overreach" thread,

I am curious why you think this. 

 

Personally, this is about the fifth time I've seen a variation of this topic.  So far this is the most even keeled one.  I think one the thread starter was in favor of it and everyone else was some variation of "this is berked up."  So thats why I thought it would be a thread with some outrage attached.

Depends on how much time Keith spends on the interwebs?

In reply to Mr_Asa :

There is a lot of outrage from the soft road crowd. 

I'm not personally one of them. My current off-road rig is locked on both ends and the middle, rolls on 35" tires, and has a crawl ratio of 69:1. That letter is not aimed at me. 

I'm just curious how this crowd feels about it. Many of them, including me, do like weird AWD off-road vehicles. 

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Duke said:

Speaking as someone with a libertarian bent, I don't have a problem with that.

Those rules are set for practical reasons, both to preserve the environment around these roads, and to limit the amount of emergency services wasted rescuing unprepared idiots driving inappropriate vehicles.

I don't mean to start an argument, but wouldn't the libertarian angle be to allow everyone to do whatever they want and let things sort themselves out?

The answer is "Not really, no."

The property owner has the right to set terms for the use of their property.  In this case, the property owner is the National Park Service.  Their terms include what types of vehicles are appropriate.  This driver violated those terms and got called out for it, and advised that future violations may / will be punished.  No issue there.

On the flip side, if we're taking a "do whatever they want and let things sort themselves out" interpretation, that includes the driver assuming responsibilty for all consequences of their choice, including liability for any damage to the surrounding environment if they go off-trail, recovery of themselves and their vehicle if they get stuck, and full acceptance of risk of injury or death from exposure while stuck.

Toyman! said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

There is a lot of outrage from the soft road crowd. 

I'm not personally one of them. My current off-road rig is locked on both ends and the middle, rolls on 35" tires, and has a crawl ratio of 69:1. That letter is not aimed at me. 

I'm just curious how this crowd feels about it. Many of them, including me, do like weird AWD off-road vehicles. 

 

My take... berkeley around and find out. They berkeleyed around. They found out. Now there is a well broadcast warning to others about what happens if you berkeley around, and rather than not berkeleying around, people are complaining about the rules that are extremely sensible. 

I see it as no different than autocross organizers not allowing vehicles that are prone to rollovers. 

The people complaining about this are why we can't have nice things. 

My mind immediately tries to find vehicles that fall into that grey area. Not to skirt the rules, just curious about where the line is drawn. Like what about that rav4 that Dirty Every Day built where the turned the stock engine sideways midship? Is that AWD?

iansane said:

My mind immediately tries to find vehicles that fall into that grey area. Like what about that rav4 that Dirty Every Day built where the turned the stock engine sideways midship? Is that AWD?

The heavily modified custom vehicles are the gray areas, yes.  One particular youtube channel has custom offroad suspension and drivetrain with a Corvair body sitting on top of it, for example.

Id bet that the DoI doesn't give a berk.  Its a Rav4 that was once only AWD? Fined.  Registered as a Corvair? Fined.

May be some appeals process, but knowing them, youd likely have to pay the fees first then fight to get the money back.  Sounds more productive to take a 4WD vehicle.

Or what about the Rivian, which while not a serious offroader, does have an extra 8 inches of clearance at the touch of a button and a nice, smooth undercarriage. 

I would imagine that there might be some incredibly frustrating traffic jams on these trails if  the softroaders couldn't clear a section that more capable vehicles would easily do.

There are several YouTube channels from people in Utah who do off-road towing and recovery.  It's funny how far some people can drive into the wilderness in vehicles that were totally not built for offroading, often it seems they're tourists from out of state in rental cars who didn't know what they were getting into.

Mr_Asa said:

Id bet that the DoI doesn't give a berk.  Its a Rav4 that was once only AWD? Fined.  Registered as a Corvair? Fined.

Coincidentally, one of the offroad recovery channels I mentioned above (Matt's Offroad Recovery) uses a Corvair wagon he's converted to 4wd for a recovery vehicle.  He dubbed it the Morvair.

prodarwin said:

I dont love how its worded, but its obviously difficult to distill off road capabilities down to a simple regulation.  Are fines being dished out?  The letter seems like a warning shot, but I doubt the follow up with be a $5k fine.

When emergency vehicles are dispatched to recover people in these areas, are they already charged a fine?

They are, but maybe they are not in it for a money grab, but, instead, are not trying to waste recovery services limited resources.

This has me a little bit curious about the distinction between AWD and 4x4 (4WD?) in the new car market.  Where is the line actually drawn and how does a consumer know?  It's easy enough to say if you drive these roads you should be intimately familiar with the inner workings of your rig and not relying on the marketing and labels, but is that reasonable?  Is it a case of all Jeep good, all Subaru bad?  It appears the entire Jeep lineup is marketed as 4x4 now.  Is a base Jeep Compass really a 4x4 and not AWD?

Toyman! said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

There is a lot of outrage from the soft road crowd. 

 

 

Ok, so? There are requirements if you want to use those trails and the "soft road vehicles" do not meet them. 

There are waterways that do not allow motorboats, should the "motorboat community" be outraged about that or just find places that do allow them?

In reply to WilD :

You can manually engage and disengage the 4wd system on a Compass, so it's considered 4wd not AWD

GMC Denali is AWD. Some mountain passes require tire chains, similar difference? 

We can only go as fast as our slowest person.

In reply to ShawnG :

We did a forest ride with a group this spring. Man is that so true.

While hanging out is fun, it does turn into a bunch of hurry up a wait. 

I mostly run solo or with my kids. 

We have 2 vehicles that are in the gray area of some of the awd/4wd definitions being discussed. . 

My wife's Sportage is AWD, but has a button to lock the center diff (even the SC4 my son had could lock the center diff). 

My GC with Quadtrac II is full time 4wd, but does not have a user control for locking the center diff in high range. The jeep can lock the center diff if commanded by the PCM, and even lock both front and rear diffs to apply all torque to one wheel if required. 

Seems like AWD and full time 4wd are a matter of interpretation unless you want to talk about high/low range, but even then it gets muddy. 
 

As to the original issue, why not have some sort of test obstacle they need it cross to get to the trail head. 

I'll pay the $5k, but they're not gonna take me back to prison alive...

How about a RWD Limo with no Subie badges?

What if it's a group of violators who remove trash and recover abandoned vehicles?

What if my windshield was coated with mud when I went past the sign?

This dual engine non-hybrid Prius would be fine I suppose.

In reply to WilD :

I would think that there is a recognized difference in what we traditionally think of as AWD and what is full time 4WD, like some 4Runners and the Lexus GX (Land Cruiser Prado). 

My wife's 85 Subaru could run in 2 high, 4 high or 4 low, and had a locking center differential. The owner's manual had a warning not to drive in four wheel drive on a high traction surface because the drive train would lock up unless you reversed the car. The rear differential was a very tight limited slip; you could feel it skipping like a locked differential when turning.

It was a lot more capable on beach sand than my 4x4 Tacoma with it's locking center and rear differentials.

That said, the Park Service gets to make the rules, and they make sense to me.

No Time said:

As to the original issue, why not have some sort of test obstacle they need it cross to get to the trail head. 

The first hard obstacle on many off-road trails is called the gatekeeper. Basically, if you can't pass it, you can't complete the trail. 

Toyman! said:

In reply to ShawnG :

 

Oh man - did someone really bring a Ridgeline on a trail ride?  I hope that gravel road is representative of the hardest obstacle the group had that day.  Otherwise you gotta be "sorry bro, you can ride with someone but that thing stays in the parking lot" 

AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:

What if my windshield was coated with mud when I went past the sign?

 

You know of a place where ignorance of the law is protection from it?  Must be nice.

In reply to 93gsxturbo :

I'm grinning in anticipation of the response to this from Toyman