Teach me about LAN hubs

I'm getting ready to do a project at the theater; outfitting my theater space with a dedicated wired/wireless network for things.  It's a 50' x 60' blackbox (configurable) space.  My tech booth is an elevated platform on casters and my seating is modular for any setup I choose.  Right now, when I move the tech booth, I have to run the audio snake and DMX cords which is a pain.

I'm getting a digital sound board (with a digital cat5 snake) and I have the ability to send my DMX via ArtNet (cat5).  I also have HDMI-cat5 converters to send to a projector.

What I want to do is put a junction box in each corner of the room as well as four boxes in the overhead grid with about 6 cat5 ports each (6 runs of cable) so that no matter where I set up I just plug in the tech booth and tell my sound engineer that audio is in port 4, tell my lighting designer that DMX is in port 5, and video is in port 1.   I also need the ability to plug in a dedicated wireless access so that the audio and light consoles can be operated remotely via an iPad. 

So they have to potentially run data both ways, and I want the ability to plug something into port 1 at any junction and have it linked to port 1 on every other box.

Can you point me in the right direction to make this happen?  Is it as easy as just plugging everything into a hub?  Does one have to use the "in" to send data?  I mean... data is both ways, right?  Shouldn't matter in or out?  Since I'm not planning on ever using more than one send/receive on each port, can they be series? Or do I have to run an individual cable for every hole, meaning 48 runs of cable?

For the more visually inclined... Here is a CAD of the space in question looking from a bird's eye view.  The red stars show where I want boxes with 6 or so ports.

There is a crawl space under the floor.

Curtis, sent you a PM.

Most of that isn't going to run through a hub. "LAN" usually refers to an Ethernet network, and the various "X over Cat5e" devices are not typically actual network devices, they're simply using the physical cat5e cable as a signal conductor. So you will want to use dumb / passive wiring devices like distribution panels. You'd have one giant (48 port) patch panel in a central location and then six-port boxes at each remote location. You can then patch between them using patch cables. You'd mark them all with a prefix for the remote box and a suffix for the specific port. So maybe "A-1" for the first box, first port, then "F-6" for the sixth box, last port.

Here's a 48-port rack mount patch panel: https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-107305-48-Port-Compatible-Patch-x/dp/B0069MI1TK
 (Or here for a bit cheaper: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=7305)

You can mount that in a rack or in a rack bracket like this: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8624

Here's a 6-port surface mount box: https://www.amazon.com/N236-006-WH-Pre-Configured-Unshielded-6-Port-Surface-Mount/dp/B077PZNF16

You could use a "keystone" wall plate for the remotes, then six jacks, and a box to mount them in. Might be a little cheaper but a little less finished looking.

For those devices that actually want connected to an Ethernet network, you would have a gigabit switch mounted next to your patch panel and patch those specific ports into your network that way, using patch cables going between the patch panel and the switch.

If you do get a switch, you could use a rack mountable one and get a bigger rack bracket than the one I linked to earlier. Most switches are going to be 1U (rack height measurement, equal to 1.75") so a 3U bracket would work for both the switch and the patch panel.

All that right there^^^.

So, say I have access to a switch/hub/thingy for free.  (IT guy on our BOD has several collecting dust, but he's also in the Navy and will be gone for the next several months.)  Would it accomplish the job of the patch panel without actually having to physically patch?  That is to say... can I hook up 48 cables to it and wire it that way, thereby getting all of the matching ports the same signal?

It will do Ethernet networking, but it will not allow you to use devices like the HDMI to Cat5e in that manner. Those are usually not actual Ethernet devices, they're just using the physical properties of the Cat5e cable to carry a proprietary signal from device to device.

Well, let me back up. It seems there are HDMI transceivers that work on an Ethernet network, like this one: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14158 . That would work the way you're picturing, according to the sales literature. The question is will *all* the devices you want work that way, and it depends on the device.

If all the devices you need are available in Ethernet / TCP/IP compatible format, then yes, you could put in the 48 port patch panel and wire all 48 ports to a 48 port switch and you would have all your remote locations "hot" and be able to plug into any of them at any time with any device and have it just work. That would be ideal, simplest, and fastest to deploy for different shows. What you need to figure out is exactly what devices you'll want wired this way and we can see if they're actually Ethernet devices or if Ethernet versions are available.

No Hubs

You want switches.

And gigabit Ethernet or maybe fiber

I'm going to ramble a little. 

You will want a patch panel, its job is to give you neat and reliable termination at the switch. You will need a home run for each node. Node = jack+wire+patch-panel-port. You will then use short patch cables from the patch panel to the switch (or other non-ethernet devices, if that what you're using that node for). The CatX wire that you use for permanent installation is solid core, patch cables are stranded. Keystone jacks and patch panels are far more reliable than any hand crimped RJ45 male.

bentwrench said:

No Hubs

You want switches.

And gigabit Ethernet or maybe fiber

I don't think you've been able to buy anything other than a switch for quite a number of years. Fiber would not be a good solution here ($$$) . Cat6 and a decent IT hand-me-down managed gigabit switch should work nicely. 

 I wired many schools in my job and a couple of things you might want to consider.

• Switches do not like heat.  If you cannot keep your switch cool, it will fail.  Keep it away from heaters/registers/spotlights, etc.
• You need to establish wiring paths that are not parallel to unshielded AC power cables or florescent panels (if they exist).
• Once you establish your wiring paths, use them - don't run future cabling outside your established routes.
• CAT5/6 does not like being walked or crawled on.  If you plan on using the crawl space, use j-hook cable supports to keep it clear of folks who might be mucking around down there. 
• Buy quality terminations.  Cheap terminations are, well, cheap. Nasty to use.  Not reliable. 
• CAT5/6 cable is not rope.  Be gentle when pulling the wire to avoid stretching it.
• Buy decent networking tools. These are not professional, but they will at least let you get the job done and check for continuity.  Tools
• You mention wireless.  Is this just for private use by theater staff, or by the public?  If public, you need to consider there is anything within your network that is sensitive or that would cause issues if accessed.  If there is, you need to consider how to isolate the public and private networks from each other. 

Re: wireless use.  The wireless will be a dedicated, proprietary WAN that is not connected to any internet.  This is just a secured network for using a laptop or ipad to control the sound and lighting consoles.  Since it is a small space, my tech booth has to be elevated about 5', and sound engineers and lighting designers prefer to be at audience level to program a show.  Performances happen from the booth, but to set things up they want their eyes and ears on the floor.  The building has its own WAN with a secured staff network and guest access with a splash page.  I don't ever anticipate having to plug Ethernet into this setup.

Fortunately no more flourescents as of this last fall.  Complete LED retrofit in the whole building.

I'll keep the crushing/crawling in mind.  The crawlspace is only about 36" and very hard to navigate.  One of my reasons for doing these cable runs is so I never have to crawl under there again.  Right now, every time I reconfigure the space I have to crawl down there with Jimmy Hoffa and the spider webs to move the audio snake and the single cat5 to a new hole in the floor.  This way I won't ever have to do that again.

re: tools... fortunately my military IT guy (who is sadly on deployment for the next 6 months or so) left his tool kit behind and showed me how to stamp RJs and test them.

dculberson said:

It will do Ethernet networking, but it will not allow you to use devices like the HDMI to Cat5e in that manner. Those are usually not actual Ethernet devices, they're just using the physical properties of the Cat5e cable to carry a proprietary signal from device to device.

Well, let me back up. It seems there are HDMI transceivers that work on an Ethernet network, like this one: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14158 . That would work the way you're picturing, according to the sales literature. The question is will *all* the devices you want work that way, and it depends on the device.

If all the devices you need are available in Ethernet / TCP/IP compatible format, then yes, you could put in the 48 port patch panel and wire all 48 ports to a 48 port switch and you would have all your remote locations "hot" and be able to plug into any of them at any time with any device and have it just work. That would be ideal, simplest, and fastest to deploy for different shows. What you need to figure out is exactly what devices you'll want wired this way and we can see if they're actually Ethernet devices or if Ethernet versions are available.

Ok... I thought a switch/hub/thing was just a "powered splitter."  I didn't know it did TCP/IP things to the signal.  I'm pretty sure the ArtNet/DMX I will be getting is ethernetable. I think by default it is so you can do more network addressing (over my head, but I know ArtNets I've seen are all run through big flashing boxes with a bunch of RJ plugs on the front).  Not sure about the HDMI converters.  They are these from Jtech

I obviously don't understand how the hub/switch/thingy works, and I know my terminology is rusty at best.

Here was my understanding of it.  Show me where I'm being dumb.  Does a magic box like this exist, and what is it called?  That's what I was hoping for.

dculberson said:

...

Well, let me back up. It seems there are HDMI transceivers that work on an Ethernet network, like this one: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14158 . That would work the way you're picturing, according to the sales literature. The question is will *all* the devices you want work that way, and it depends on the device.

...

Still better to use a proper patch panel. For one, an Ethernet netework is a CSMA/CD (Carrier Sense Multiple Access / Collission Detection) setup - which means any device with data to transmit will wait for the line to seem to be clear (the carrier sense part) then when it transmits, if something else transmits at the same time, both will back off a random amount of time. 

If you are pushing video through these connections, the best way to do it is with dedicated cable for each link. That said, our church uses this HDMI setup with one sender, and multiple receivers plugged into a hub. That works pretty well because there's only one device with significant transmission. (also, the HDMI-Ethernet-HDMI conversion gives ~2.5 seconds of lag for the video so it's out of sync with our house audio. No issue for Powerpoint, but distracting when we're playing a camera feed or a video. 

As far as your last diagram - there are devices that use Categoty 5 (or better) cable to transmit a signal, but if the signal is not Ethernet, then an Ethernet switch will not send that traffic to other ports.

You're up near Harrisburg, yes?

Yup, Harrisburg

What's the timeframe for getting the cable runs in place? If you have cables pulled (and labeled) then termination & testing is a little time consumptive, but possibly something I could come up and help with one evening.

With your green image at the start of this post - I see 8 locations for your sound booth to connect. Is there a semi-central location where cables from these 8 locations can meet? That's where the 48-port patch panel should be located. 

For Ethernet / network gear, you could connect (as an example) ports 1 and 2 for each location from the patch panel to the Ethernet switch. That would allow any network device in any location on port 1 or 2 to talk to another network device in any of the other locations on port 1 or 2. Ports 3-6 might then use a different switch, or just a patch cable connecting one location to the other. I have some network switches (possibly even gigabit ones) gathering dust that I might be able to contribute to the cause. 

One other option. If you don't want to go through the trouble of doing & testing cable ends, you could do this:

Get keystone F-F jacks (100)
Get 48 cables of the required length. Monoprice is cheap, good, and tested: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=9808 They have color options and lengths up to 100' (the Ethernet spec is up to 100 meters long)

10 100' cables ends up being about $160. A box of cat6e cable might be $50 cheaper. But then you have the components for termination too. 

At your central location, use something like this https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8630, and a wall mount bracket like this: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8624

For the 8 remote locations, something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Patch-Panel-Blank-Veritcal-Hd-12-Port/dp/B001UKAW16/ref=sr_1_13?keywords=keystone+panel&qid=1550699840&s=gateway&sr=8-13 It's a 12-port, I don't see 6-port ones. 

Then you can use 100 of these https://www.amazon.com/Listed-VCE-25-Pack-Keystone-Coupler-Black/dp/B075ZPGV1H/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=keystone+rj45+coupler&qid=1550700034&s=gateway&sr=8-3 to snap in to the panels and just plug the cables together. No termination at all! You can use the preterminated patch cable. (I pointed to Amazon, because the ones Monoprice was selling 2 years ago didn't quite work properly. They allow the cable to slide out fractionally from the contacts and then connectivity was unreliable. That was probably <10 out of 300 units. Enough to be troubling, even with a good cable tester.

Then you'll want some additional patch cables to connect to the switch or to your end stations. 

In reply to Curtis :

Did I send too much? Or was the above helpful?

Greg Smith said:

In reply to Curtis :

Did I send too much? Or was the above helpful?

 

Incredibly helpful... just was away from internet for a while.

Digesting it now.

Greg Smith said:

What's the timeframe for getting the cable runs in place? If you have cables pulled (and labeled) then termination & testing is a little time consumptive, but possibly something I could come up and help with one evening.

With your green image at the start of this post - I see 8 locations for your sound booth to connect. Is there a semi-central location where cables from these 8 locations can meet? That's where the 48-port patch panel should be located. 

For Ethernet / network gear, you could connect (as an example) ports 1 and 2 for each location from the patch panel to the Ethernet switch. That would allow any network device in any location on port 1 or 2 to talk to another network device in any of the other locations on port 1 or 2. Ports 3-6 might then use a different switch, or just a patch cable connecting one location to the other. I have some network switches (possibly even gigabit ones) gathering dust that I might be able to contribute to the cause. 

 

One other option. If you don't want to go through the trouble of doing & testing cable ends, you could do this:

Get keystone F-F jacks (100)
Get 48 cables of the required length. Monoprice is cheap, good, and tested: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=9808 They have color options and lengths up to 100' (the Ethernet spec is up to 100 meters long)

10 100' cables ends up being about $160. A box of cat6e cable might be $50 cheaper. But then you have the components for termination too. 

At your central location, use something like this https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8630, and a wall mount bracket like this: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8624

For the 8 remote locations, something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Patch-Panel-Blank-Veritcal-Hd-12-Port/dp/B001UKAW16/ref=sr_1_13?keywords=keystone+panel&qid=1550699840&s=gateway&sr=8-13 It's a 12-port, I don't see 6-port ones. 

Then you can use 100 of these https://www.amazon.com/Listed-VCE-25-Pack-Keystone-Coupler-Black/dp/B075ZPGV1H/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=keystone+rj45+coupler&qid=1550700034&s=gateway&sr=8-3 to snap in to the panels and just plug the cables together. No termination at all! You can use the preterminated patch cable. (I pointed to Amazon, because the ones Monoprice was selling 2 years ago didn't quite work properly. They allow the cable to slide out fractionally from the contacts and then connectivity was unreliable. That was probably <10 out of 300 units. Enough to be troubling, even with a good cable tester.

Then you'll want some additional patch cables to connect to the switch or to your end stations. 

Timeframe:  No specific time frame, but I would say 9 months ago?    The way things go here at the theater, its hard to plan time.  I never know if I'll have a crazy week or an easy one.  Part of the reason for this project is so I have fewer crazy weeks.  For instance; this week we're having a big catered dinner party/fundraiser at the theater.  They requested that I stash the booth somewhere for more space and the only requirements they had were some audio for a piano and a singer.  Easy.  I set up my little 8-channel mixer beside the piano, one mic, and ran an XLR to the amps.  Then I put the booth behind the current set to get it out of the way.  Then they surprised me with needs for a projector with a powerpoint presentation including a short video with audio as well as a need for specific lighting.  So out came the ladder and I spent most of the day re-routing my cat5 for HDMI, a 50' DMX cable, and an xlr across the ceiling grid so I could drop it to where the booth was hidden.  If I had these nodes installed, it literally would have taken 2 minutes to plug in a couple cat5 to the nearest box.

re: central location:  It is more or less a big empty box with a crawl space under the floor.  In that picture, the wall that is closest to the bottom of the view (you might see a label that says "mirrors") has more or less become the "tech wall".  In the following picture:

- orange stars indicate locations in the floor with access to the crawl space via HVAC air return grates
- red arrow shows where I mounted my 16x4 XLR snake head.
- yellow shapes show where we typically put sets depending on the show; either the left corner, the right corner, or right in the middle

So the bottom left of the picture is the door that leads to dressing rooms and green room.  Since that wall is where most of the sets typically go, I chose to put the snake head at the red arrow.  My amplifiers and EQ are in a rolling road case rack that I can wheel over to the snake head and plug in with some short XLR.  But, if my tech booth is in the upper left, upper right, or other location, I have to go down in the crawl space and wrestle with a snake to get it moved to where the tech booth is.  The short answer to your question is, it makes the most sense to put the patch panel somewhere on that wall near the snake head.

Re: 8 locations.  I've revised this to 6 locations; 4 at deck level and two in the ceiling grid

Thank you for all the kickass info, everyone.  I really appreciate it.  Greg, I'll hit you up in a PM soon.  TenToe, I'll likely call you as well.

Feel free to me a call. If I don't answer, I'm driving or otherwise occupied and will call you back. I will keep an eye out for an 818 number.

you can reach me at two-forty seventy-niner 3 92 ninety-eight. 

I think I'm about 75 minutes from you, so could come by and do at least a walkthrough & plan with you. Cutting things down from 8 to 6 helps with materials cost. Will it compromise your functionality at all?

And the "central location" need not be central. technically, the main panel could ba at one of the 6 locations as long as it's easily accessible and you can have short patch cables between the jacks without being visible to the show. Centrally located does tend to mean that you cn run shorter cables to all of the locations though. but if you will be repatching regularly, then accessability > centralness.

The biggest need is having a box at each corner of the room so it's easy to plug in the tech booth.  The other four were going to go in the four corners of the grid, but after further consideration I decided that opposite corners would do the trick.  The primary uses in the grid will be HDMI and DMX, but A) once the DMX leaves the Artnet converter, it has to run in series across each pipe - daisy-chained between fixtures, and B) the projector usually needs to be at one extreme or the other of the grid for enough throw.  I think a box at each corner would be redundant.

The other big functionality I will need is enough nodes, so even though I technically only need 3-4 right now, I'm trying to make it future-proof in case I add a second universe of lights, get a cat5 clearcom setup, or get more than one digital audio snake.  I could potentially foresee the addition of something like an 8-channel digital snake in the grid for shotgun mics, or some powered speakers for sfx.

I can send you a video if it helps as well.  That door in the lower left leads to a multi purpose/kitchen area.  I gave considerable thought to building a rack in there to hold any patch panels, amps, eqs, etc since it shares a wall in common with the theater.

I've never met someone who complained about having too much well-run structured cabling.

In your drawings (with the green room at the S-E corner), if you have some space that you could dedicate to a small network closet in the green room that would be great. There are always cheap four-post racks on craigslist that you could use to mount your PA equipment, your network gear, etc.

Something like this: https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/sys/d/fairless-hills-42u-tripp-lite-server/6827706454.html

Or this: https://southjersey.craigslist.org/sop/d/shiloh-apc-open-frame-server-rack/6820659150.htm

The benefit of a four-post rack is that it doesn't generally need to be anchored to the ground (still nice if you can though), whereas a two-poster NEEDS to be bolted to the floor.

After you've picked your preferred location for your network closet, you need to run home-runs to all your remote drops. This is when you want a helper, and ideally several boxes of bulk cable. If you're running six homeruns to each termination, buying three boxes of 1000' of cat5e means you only have to pull cable twice per termination (pulling three cables and routing them is just as easy as pulling one). If you have the budget to buy six boxes of cable, then you'll be even better off and you only have to do one pull per termination. Cable is cheap, terminations are cheap, boxes are cheap, and if you're doing it on your own time, then the labor is all you'll care about and you can add more drops to the ceiling grid over time.

Since this will be an overall structured cabling plan, some things you can do:

Six ethernet runs to each corner of the theater terminating and labelled as 1A-1F through 4A-4F

Six runs to each corner of the ceiling grid (you'll want these eventually, might as well plan to put them in now), labelled as 5A-5F through 8A-8F

Use some of your leftover ethernet cabling to run to the grid above your common stage locations to have two XLR jacks that you can use for overhead mics. You can solder an XLR jack to the end of ethernet cabling, just use two of the ethernet strands per xlr pin. Overhead XLR that you can run to a rack-mounted Behringer XR18 that lives in your network rack would be pretty sweet. Another option is soldering up your own little patch cables that have a male Ethernet jack and a (female or male) XLR jack and then you can use any of your homeruns to send mic-level or line-level audio back to a rack-mounted mixer.

You could also buy some two-conductor speaker wire and terminate to speakons up in the grid, and home-run them back to the network rack. I'd keep the speaker wire a few inches away from the low-voltage cabling if you can. The ability to fly a speaker, plug in to a connector 10 feet away and then just patch in the rack is NICE. You could also run to speakons that terminate in the corners of your black box instead of the grid if you want to run through the crawl space, but I'd generally prefer to fly the speakers if you can get away with it. You can always send line-level audio through your low-voltage runs to get to a powered speaker or sub in any of your corners anyway.

When you're planning and laying out your rack, from top to bottom I'd plan for:

Ethernet switch

Etnernet terminations for your patch panel(s). These need to be WELL labelled

Special purpose terminations for your audio gear (your XLR terminated ethernet runs)

Rack mounted mixing rig

Special purpose audio gear

Lighting control

Power distribution (rack-mounted power bar to power all your gear)

Open space for future expansion

Power amplifiers

Audio connectors for speakers

This is great stuff, thank you.

I have also done racks with 2x4s and use drywall screws to attach the components.  I have two amps, one 2-channel EQ, and a power distro that will go in the rack as well.  There is room in the green room for a small tech closet.  There is also an outlet right there.  One of my frustrating things is that it wasn't really wired for theater use.  I have two legs in that space so the electric shares with everything else.  Fortunately all my lights are LEDs so no dimmers (except a couple portable edison packs).  I can usually keep the audio clean with a ground lift in strategic places.

I like the idea of cat5 - XLR... but won't it be noisy?  Solid conductors with no shield.

Current speakers are in a cluster above the grid.  I have four 12" yamaha passive cabinets up there hanging from swivels so I can spin them any direction based on where I have the audience.  I then have a couple EON powered rubbermaids and a Yamaha StagePass setup and a small crate guitar amp.  I'm pretty much set up with really awful sounding things that I can usually EQ to not sound like crap.

Curtis said:

cat5 - XLR... but won't it be noisy? 

Balanced audio should work fine over UTP. The whole idea behind balanced audio is its noise canceling ability.