Tesla is in big trouble

The title of this thread is "Tesla is in big trouble"

So I'm posting this:

WonkoTheSane said:

I've heard that in the Rivian/Cybertruck arena, tires are the new oil change...

They are saying rubber coming off of tires is a notable environmental hazard... oh well... 

In reply to NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) :

Feels about right.

With all due respect, that's not normal tire wear for a heavy vehicle. 
 

I have 2 trucks.  Both weigh over 7500 lbs.  That's about 700 lbs more than a Cybertruck.  One is wearing Toyo Open Country R/T's, and the other is wearing Michelins.  I have no problem getting 50,000 miles from a set of tires.

I've owned trucks for 40 years.  I owned a small fleet of heavy utility trucks.  The worst wear I've ever had was about 32K.

My tires usually cost around $275 each..  The Tesla tires cost more like $470 each.  That's a lot more than an oil change!

The average driver in the US drives about 15,000 miles per year.  If the tire life is 15K, then the operating costs to own the ugliest vehicle ever made just increased by $2000 per year.

In reply to SV reX :

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense.  You could say it's all the torque destroying the tires, but these cars are full on traction control, so no tire spinning.  Maybe all the torque still destroys them somehow?

You could also say the 4 wheel steering causes wear, but that could / should also be able to optimize alignment at all times.

aircooled said:

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense.  You could say it's all the torque destroying the tires, but these cars are full on traction control, so no tire spinning.  Maybe all the torque still destroys them somehow?

EV traction control is not like ICE traction control, it is much more precise at delivering exactly the maximum amount of acceleration.  That means it's also much more precise at delivering exactly the maximum amount of tire shredding. :)
 

aircooled said:

In reply to SV reX :

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense.  You could say it's all the torque destroying the tires, but these cars are full on traction control, so no tire spinning.  Maybe all the torque still destroys them somehow?

You could also say the 4 wheel steering causes wear, but that could / should also be able to optimize alignment at all times.

Tires don't have to spin to wear. They are still applying force to the ground to move a large object. 

z31maniac said:

Tires don't have to spin to wear. They are still applying force to the ground to move a large object. 

Yeah, but there is no more force going through Cybertruck tires accelerating to 60mph with the flow of traffic than there is in SVreX's 3/4 ton pickup.  In fact it should be less as his truck weighs more.

Slightly off topic, all wheels receiving engine power "slip", and its a function of how much power they get.  I'm not talking burnout/wheelspin, just a very small %.   I remember doing the experiment in college where you put a mark on a driven tire and undriven tire and corresponding marks on the pavement, drive slowly about 50 yards and back up to where you started.  The unpowered mark will still align, the powered mark wont.

TravisTheHuman said:

z31maniac said:

Tires don't have to spin to wear. They are still applying force to the ground to move a large object. 

Yeah, but there is no more force going through Cybertruck tires accelerating to 60mph with the flow of traffic than there is in SVreX's 3/4 ton pickup.  In fact it should be less as his truck weighs more.

I'm betting that many Cybertruck owners are accelerating harder, braking harder, and cornering harder than your typical truck driver (why else would you buy one?).

Don't know about the Cybertrucks, but the Rivian's adjustable air suspension can allow for the vehicle to drive with less than ideal alignment from a tire wear perspective.

Looks like the Rivian's air suspension has around 7 inches of travel, and the Cybertruck has around 9 inches of travel. There's only going to be one point in that travel where tire wear will be minimized. Everything else is going to impact camber.

TravisTheHuman said:

z31maniac said:

Tires don't have to spin to wear. They are still applying force to the ground to move a large object. 

Yeah, but there is no more force going through Cybertruck tires accelerating to 60mph with the flow of traffic than there is in SVreX's 3/4 ton pickup.  In fact it should be less as his truck weighs more.

Actual, that only true if they accelerate at the same rate, Force = Mass x Acceleration. 

Add in the difference in torque curves, higher losses in the ICE transmission and driveline, and it's not hard to see the loads applied to the tire have the potential to be significant higher when leaving a stop for an EV. 

It may not be accurate, but I think of it in a rough analogy like silly putty, the gas engine is the slow stretch, the EV is the quick snap. 
 

Edit: I realized I forgot to add a picture showing how the torque curves are different  

The other trick is that I'm sure SVreX is using E rated tires..  Any idea what the CT/Riven is being shipped with?  I'll bet they're a lot grippier...  (Yes, I'm aware ultimate Mu isn't related to load rating, but ya know, discussion and whatnot)

That being said, you'd think that EVs would offer a "consumable preservation mode" (like the old "ECO" buttons on ICE) that would maximize the tire wear with appropriate torque applied to each tire.  I know accelleration would be seriously reduced, but I wouldn't think that most people care most of the time?

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

I wonder how many drivers treat the accelerator like an on/off switch, especially with minimal audio feedback? 

You could make the torque limiting mode the default (up to a certain speed), and have a "launch mode" that unlock the full potential. 
 

I would also make a totally ignorant and uneucated guess in that the re-gen braking system probably puts more wear onto the tires themselves too.  I.E. when you're not on the accelerator, you're still braking ever so slightly to regenerate electricity...?  

I'm by no means an expert, so I very well may be wrong, but it was something that crossed my mind. 

No Time said:

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

I wonder how many drivers treat the accelerator like an on/off switch, especially with minimal audio feedback? 

You could make the torque limiting mode the default (up to a certain speed), and have a "launch mode" that unlock the full potential. 

Based on my experience sitting right seat in supercars, my guess is a lot of 'em :)

I'm not really suggesting a comparison to the trucks I own (or have owned). If any comparison is valid, I'd say compare it to the Lightning.

But if Cybertrucks are going through tires at that rate, then they are wearing the wrong tires, or have a design flaw.  (and also encourage drivers who drive like azzhats)

The average Cybertruck owner most definitely will not buy a new $2000 set of tires every year.  That means those beasts will be driven irresponsibly with no tread on the tire.  That's dangerous.

The compound is poorly matched with the specs of the truck and how they are being used.
 

SV reX said:

I'm not really suggesting a comparison to the trucks I own (or have owned). If any comparison is valid, I'd say compare it to the Lightning.

But if Cybertrucks are going through tires at that rate, then they are wearing the wrong tires, or have a design flaw.  (and also encourage drivers who drive like azzhats)

The average Cybertruck owner most definitely will not buy a new $2000 set of tires every year.  That means those beasts will be driven irresponsibly with no tread on the tire.  That's dangerous.

The compound is poorly matched with the specs of the truck and how they are being used.
 

 Yep, totally agreed :)   I bolded the parts I most agreed with, and your last point about people not buying proper tires is supported by all of the posts on /r/cyberstuck :)

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

I'm not sure I'd blame the owners for the tires they buy. Those are the tires from Tesla.  
 

...which becomes a design flaw.  

SV reX said:

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

I'm not sure I'd blame the owners for the tires they buy. Those are the tires from Tesla.  
 

...which becomes a design flaw.  

The RWD Model 3s demolish rear tires.  With regen, they do all of the acceleration and all of the braking.  (I have no other Tesla model experiences)

This is nothing new.  Remember the BG chassis Fords that are now a forum filter?  Without tire rotations they could wear the front tires to the wear bars in 9000 miles.   Working at a Goodyear shop when those were still new cars, we saw that a lot.

And Teslas are a lot heavier than Ford Econoboxs.

I figured that Tesla would have done an Apple and make everything different and unique so that you had to buy only their crap, like Ford Mustang metric 390mm tires and wheels. Surprisingly, Tire Rack calls out LT285/65R20 tires.

TireRack.com: 2025 Tesla Cybertruck All-Wheel Drive 285/65-20 Tires

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

Yup.

But the Tire Rack recommendation is for E rated 10 ply AT tires.  The tire Tesla puts on the car is the Goodyear Wrangler Territory RT.  That's a rugged terrain D rated tire.  It's a softer compound 8 ply with a lower weight rating than the E rated tires.  It's not really designed for asphalt.

They put it on the truck for looks.  That's all.  Just to make it look more aggressive.

In reply to SV reX :

This is different, how, from all the lifted 3/4 ton trucks on mud terrains that are so choppy from driving on asphalt that it sounds like an Osprey is next to you?

In reply to SV reX :

Funny, and yet they still get stuck in mud and snow.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

This is different, how, from all the lifted 3/4 ton trucks on mud terrains that are so choppy from driving on asphalt that it sounds like an Osprey is next to you?

It's different because when someone who lifted his 3/4 ton truck and put giant mud tires on it complains about fuel economy, you can point and laugh and tell him it's his own fault, whereas OEM tire packages are theoretically supposed to make more sense. :)

The tire wear thing is not just tesla.  I was looking at BMW I3 and tire wear/replacement cost was a big discussion.  Not sure how the regen systems regulate load but the tires do seem to take a beating.