The case for working with your hands

In the comments on this article, a poster shared a Danish proverb taught to him by his grandfather:

"You can do the work of the mind without the hand, but not that of the hand without the mind."

Words to live by.

I wish I'd gone to UW-Stout. They require you to acquire a trade as part of your program. I think I could have been a hell of a welder or an avant-garde machinist.... Too late now.

Taiden wrote: One of the biggest things I am worried about going into mechanical engineering is that I'll end up with a desk job. Thank god it has a motorsports concentration, I hope I can end up on a team like Redbull Racing. I'd be really happy working at a high end shop. The kind that R&Ds their own performance parts.

Be careful what you wish for. I know guys who did F1 for a while. Be prepared for never being home and never sleeping. If you have a girlfriend or wife, break it off before you go into the job.

The article reminds me a of a guy I used to hang out with. He moved to Silicon Valley with degree in computer science from University of Pennsylvania. After bouncing around trying to find work in the wake for the dot com bust, he got fed up and joined a training/apprenticeship program to become an electrician for Pacific Gas and Electric. He did it because "They can't outsource the grid to India." So after a long hours getting an engineering/science degree, he earns his living as a lineman.

I've got a BFA in industrial (product) design. I make my living at a shop that designs and builds custom objects like: strange signs, furniture, high end cabinetry, and functional sculptures (6' tall light switches and equally tall 3D fire hydrant cabinets).

I'm absolutely a better designer than most I know solely because I am also a craftsman. The whole process of making informs the process of design or engineering.

On the flip side, I don't make much. I could take a pure design job somewhere and nearly double my salary. That said, I have some great tools at my disposal after hours, including a 3 axis CNC router and a large spray booth. Both will be useful when I remodel the kitchen.

I really wanted to go to McPherson College for their auto restoration program. My folks wanted me to get a 4 year degree first. I chose an art degree that gave me many of the skills needed to restore a car, or design one.

Thanks for the article. I'm going to pass it on to some architect friends of mine.

If it wasn't for the Graphics & Printing Vocational Prep program at my high school, I wouldn't be where I am today. In high school I was able to get the skills I needed to land a job at a graphics shop right after graduation. I knew how to run a daylight camera, do paste-ups, use a design program (Aldus PageMaker to show my age), and how to run an offset printing press. That education got me in the door and allowed me to learn FAR more then they EVER teach in college about the graphics profession. By 20 I was running my own 4-color press and 21 I was doing production graphic design. I got my degree in Technical Communications and was able to apply almost everything I had learned on the job to getting my degree. In return almost everything I learned for my degree I was able to apply at work the next day. Now I've pretty much got my dream job, but I always know I can go back to any one of my prior jobs because I got a chance.

Talk to some high schools kids, ask them about vocational skill training at school. The overwhelming answer I hear is "they don't offer that anymore". What kind of a chance are we giving these kids if they never have a chance to learn a trade? Face it, not every person is cut out for college, for any reason you want to list. Even a technical college might be out. But this country is losing an important part of the Vocational Tech education benefit: responsibility. Teach a kid to do something with their own two hands, to take ownership of something, to make something, to trust them, to work together.

Yeah, I took some shop classes just to goof off, but I surprised myself later in life when I used some of those skills to fix my own house. I'm trying to work up a program here at work to benefit school vocational training programs, I hope it comes around.

I went to college, got an associates, as well as a bachelors. Management and Comp Sci (IT) respectively. I am currently working in finance. It's a fun gig sometimes. Decent pay, allows me to maintain the lifestyle to which I've become accustomed.

I do have a side gig repairing computers, I do a combination of parts changing and problem solving. Also a fun gig sometimes.

In my experience, it has more to do with the people than the work.

around here Vocational Technical school is where they generally send the kids who do not do well in a "traditional" high school setting.

See, that's the stigma associated with voc tech programs. They're a consolation prize for the dimwits, not a viable option for those who won't be well-served by a 'traditional' college education.

Buzz modified what Jensenman wrote: Still and all, the most satisfaction I get out of this job is NOT numbers but happy clients. I figger if they leave happy and their problems are fixed, I have accomplished something. While that's not bad at all, I get more true satisfaction out of helping someone accomplish a goal or stand up for themselves.

wow, that's weird. except that i don't know of any co-workers who are willing to act immorally for their paycheck, even though the movies say it must be otherwise.

Jensenman wrote: Our society, through movies etc places more value on the so called 'professional' than the blue collar worker. I personally think that's backwards; Mike Rowe's 'Dirty Jobs' shows that those who do get grease under their nails etc. are at least as valuable (and some would say more valuable) to society than the so called professional.

i don't think that's true at all. i can't think of a single movie that featured a happy or sympathetic "professional" character that wasn't a doctor. i can probably reel off a good half-dozen or more that featured some variation on the unhappy "professional" character who "saw the light" and was happier in a lower-paying job, more kids, etc.

every job has some value to society; otherwise no one would get paid to do it. the mistake people make is in equating salary with societal value. salary is simply a measure of what your particular skill set is worth to someone else. LeBron James's job is probably low on the social value meter, but his skill set is worth a lot of monet. a teacher is the opposite; very high in social value, but no one is willing to pay very much money for someone to do the job.

Biggest mistake of my education career was dropping out of Votech because I wasn't sure if I wanted to work on cars.

I could have gone for design, manufacturering, carpentry or about 80 million other programs that would have at least given me some background to allow for better jobs during college.

I've always wanted to get a Bachelors, but as long as I'm happy, I don't care if I use it or not.

PHeller wrote: I could have gone for design, manufacturering, carpentry or about 80 million other programs that would have at least given me some background to allow for better jobs during college.

Not only that, it's something to fall back on, if the corporate world doesn't work out for whatever reason. I knew many a person who went the trade route during a layoff.

ignorant wrote:

Taiden wrote: One of the biggest things I am worried about going into mechanical engineering is that I'll end up with a desk job. Thank god it has a motorsports concentration, I hope I can end up on a team like Redbull Racing. I'd be really happy working at a high end shop. The kind that R&Ds their own performance parts.

Be careful what you wish for. I know guys who did F1 for a while. Be prepared for never being home and never sleeping. If you have a girlfriend or wife, break it off before you go into the job.

+1.

I know a guy who did CART, too. Same thing. Can't imagine NASCAR, since they have even fewer breaks.

E-

BTW, the bold is not yelling; for whatever reason this board's programming does all kinds of weird things with quotes and I am too stupid to figure out what I am doing wrong.

Buzz Killington wrote:

Buzz modified what Jensenman wrote: Still and all, the most satisfaction I get out of this job is NOT numbers but happy clients. I figger if they leave happy and their problems are fixed, I have accomplished something. While that's not bad at all, I get more true satisfaction out of helping someone accomplish a goal or stand up for themselves.

wow, that's weird. except that i don't know of any co-workers who are willing to act immorally for their paycheck, even though the movies say it must be otherwise.

What's weird about that? To me, a paycheck is the reward for a job well done, not an end in and of itself. IMHO, someone driven by money only is someone to be watched very carefully. And as I mentioned before, I have a co worker who has to be watched VERY carefully for exactly that reason.

Buzz Killington wrote:

Jensenman wrote: Our society, through movies etc places more value on the so called 'professional' than the blue collar worker. I personally think that's backwards; Mike Rowe's 'Dirty Jobs' shows that those who do get grease under their nails etc. are at least as valuable (and some would say more valuable) to society than the so called professional.

i don't think that's true at all. i can't think of a single movie that featured a happy or sympathetic "professional" character that wasn't a doctor. i can probably reel off a good half-dozen or more that featured some variation on the unhappy "professional" character who "saw the light" and was happier in a lower-paying job, more kids, etc. every job has some value to society; otherwise no one would get paid to do it. the mistake people make is in equating salary with societal value. salary is simply a measure of what your particular skill set is worth to someone else.

I don't see anything out there in TV land (and granted I don't watch much network TV because I like to keep my lunch down) other than 'Dirty Jobs' which glorifies manual labor.

BTW, ever hear Jackson Browne's 'Young Lawyers in Love'?

About societal attitudes: I worked in an auto parts store in the early '80's, the store manager and his wife (who, IIRC, was an office worker of some description) decided they wanted to buy a condominium (that was during the condo boom). So they picked out an area where they wanted to live, did the math and based on their incomes decided they could afford the condo. So they went in to the sales office to get the usual shafting.

They looked around, picked out the one they wanted and when they sat down to do the paperwork they filled out the initial application and handed it to the sales manager. the SM looked at the application and said 'Sorry but this development is for professionals only and your jobs are not considered professional'. I guess they didn't want those scummy blue or off-white collar workers in their little corner of heaven. He and his wife filed a lawsuit, I don't know what finally became of it.

Buzz Killington wrote: LeBron James's job is probably low on the social value meter, but his skill set is worth a lot of monet. a teacher is the opposite; very high in social value, but no one is willing to pay very much money for someone to do the job.

And right there is what is wrong with society. Not just ours; everywhere.

LeBron gets paid to play a game.

People who save lives daily or put their life in jeopardy for others get far less than he does.

I'm sure doctors, nurse, cops etc have a better skill set than a good lay-up.

Shawn

Trans_Maro wrote: I'm sure doctors, nurse, cops etc have a better skill set than a good lay-up.

Did you SEE that shot?

Seriously, though, I had a beef with how much athletes/movie stars got paid for a long time, until it finally occurred to me that they make that much because they produce much more income. The sales of LeBron jerseys alone will probably cover his salary this year.

They're paid that much because WE make them worth that much.

Tim Baxter wrote: They're paid that much because WE make them worth that much.

Like I said....

Trans_Maro wrote: I'm sure doctors, nurse, cops etc have a better skill set than a good lay-up.

I'm sure they do, but they don't have people paying a butt load of $$ to watch them work.

mad_machine wrote: around here Vocational Technical school is where they generally send the kids who do not do well in a "traditional" high school setting.

part of my life story.....I could go on and on, but I already did once on the old forum so I wont now. Cliff notes version: Supposedly near genius IQ, but failing in middle school in a prestigious school district. sent to Vo Tech for HS because the prestigious school district didn't tolerate under achievers that weren't Ivy league bound. Did fairly good there in Vo Tech, and went to college anyway. Hated college and dropped out, went back for more vocational training and have been working as a wrench ever since. No student loans to pay off, and paid more than some mechanical engineers that have worked along-side me.

I tried to go to trade school. They told me I didn't need to go to trade school. But I want to be a mechanic, I told them. You don't need to be a mechanic, they said.

My best friend was not the sharpest tool in the shed, and a bit of a trouble maker. He skipped grade 8, so he could go straight to trade (high) school, and was on the tools and making money by the time he was 18. I dropped out during grade 10, and became a mechanic.

suprf1y wrote: I tried to go to trade school. They told me I didn't need to go to trade school. But I want to be a mechanic, I told them. You don't need to be a mechanic, they said. My best friend was not the sharpest tool in the shed, and a bit of a trouble maker. He skipped grade 8, so he could go straight to trade (high) school, and was on the tools and making money by the time he was 18. I dropped out during grade 10, and became a mechanic.

Posts like these are what's aggrivating. Noboday has to do anything- but they should do something... The fact that people were discouraging you from doing what you WANT to do is terrible!

How can they tell people "follow your dream"- and then tell you your dream isn't valid???

It would have been far better for them to help you find the best trade school you could, and finish whatever grade school finishes at- with emphasis on real world small business management. And then in trade school you get the skills to do the real work, and some more basic management training.

I'm really glad that I'm not the only one that is tired of telling people that physical work for a living isn't a bad thing. It's not for everyeone, just as desk work isn't either, but there's a very, very valuable place in our society for this kind of work. It's also one of the many reasons we have an alien based physical work force (legal or not legal).

Eric

don't get "social value" and "monetary value" mixed up, Jensen. they are two entirely different things. for lack of a better term, "the market" sets the monetary value of a particular skill set. LBJ makes others a lot of money, so he in turn is well-paid.

Jensenman wrote: What's weird about that? To me, a paycheck is the reward for a job well done, not an end in and of itself. IMHO, someone driven by money only is someone to be watched very carefully. And as I mentioned before, I have a co worker who has to be watched VERY carefully for exactly that reason.

note that i slightly altered what you had said to fit my own situation. i said "weird" b/c even though you are a mechanic and i'm a lawyer, we both get satisfaction from basically the same aspect of our jobs; fixing a problem someone has brought to us. given the past conversations regarding lawyers on this board (there's that "social attitudes" thing), it struck me as interesting.

then again, i wouldn't do this job for free, so....

LBJ...Lyndon B Johnson?

haha...

Anyway...Lebron would probably do his job for free...which pisses me off a little because he makes millions.

That's where I get socialist. I think professional athletes and music groups should be taxed like a good 50% of their income because some dude sitting in the back of an ambulance saving lives is barely making 1/30th of the athlete or singer/band income.

Buzz: Let's don't start THAT debate all over again. We will just have to agree to disagree and if you tick me off I'll resurrect the ThunderTurd and get my co driver to hit y'all with it at the next LeMons South.

BTW, I'm not a mechanic. I'm a service advisor. Which means salesman.

Anyway, on the subject of social value vs monetary value: they are not really aspects of the same thing. Many entertainers get stinkin' rich selling CDs etc to the general public but then coke kingpins also get rich selling something to the general public. Money is not the sole measure of success or worth to society!

I hated all 12 years of school i graduated, have my diploma and feel good about myself. I didnt excel at school but i didnt suck either, i was one of those who just floated along because it wasnt my thing. I had people pulling me in all directions after i left high school. Instead i figured i would secure a future first. I love working on cars and have been doin it forever why not get paid for it. So against a poopload of negative criticism i went to a Vocational trade school for general automotive. less then two years after finishing im a master tech and make good pay and live a good life. Now imagine someone like me going to college and taking all of those exams and and doing bookwork and being super stressed all the time. Id probably still be there struggling to be something i dont want to be and not makin any real $$$ yet. If you got the skills use them. I wasnt taught how to be good with my hands i always have been. Why wouldnt i take advantage of that fact. THAT would have been the stupid choice.

And as for vocational institutes. They are all they same. And by that i mean you take out of it what you will. Votech schools arent for morons who couldnt do any better they just dont give a crap if you learn or not cause you paid already.

Sorry to rant its just this subject just hits close to home. Everyone expected more of me and then i showed them i can make it and now its okay when before i was gonna be a "grease monkey".