the Dirty Jobs guy just makes too much sense sometimes

SVreX wrote: Hard work in the manual trades OFTEN means long hours, and it is unlikely you will ever have a flex schedule. You work when there is work. You work when the crew works. You work round the clock when there is something dirty to do. You work when the weather allows.

And this is why they can't fill those jobs. Most people don't want to work in the snow at 2 AM welding something.

I think they look at a job like that and say, "Screw that, I'll make coffee at Starbucks."

Think about this: If everybody was scrambling to be a sub-arctic pipe fitter and had the qualifications to do it, do you think they'd offer the same wages they are now when there is a labor shortage?

In reply to SVreX:

You misunderstand me. I am not saying these people do not want to ever put in those crap hours. I am saying they do not want to always put in those crap hours. It is not about expecting to always get to set the magical perfect schedule for yourself. It is about occasionally having the opportunity to say, "I'm taking a four day weekend to go race my car."

I would think that the most in demand of trade jobs would have awesome benefits including loads of vacation and excellent medical.

You'd think anyone worth hiring would be worth keeping.

SVreX wrote: The most connected generation in the history of the world can't work in a remote place that has the internet in trade for a 6 figure job that only works 6-8 months of the year?

Because the most connected generation understands that electronic communication is not a substitute for genuine human interaction.

In reply to Beer Baron:

I don't disagree about human interaction.

You can do a heck of a lot of interacting in 4 months of off time.

SVreX wrote: A quick look at some of your occupations... ...Engineer, Journalist, 4 year degree, County Planner, Electrical Designer, Architect, Production Control Analyst, CAD Specialist, Web Developer, IT guy... With all due respect, guys, I don't think you represent the demographic Mr. Rowe is advocating.

Well, I've also been a dishwasher, bartender, bottle capper, framer, retail wonk, warehouse bitch, truck driver, electrician, printing press mechanic, and a few other crappy jobs I needed at the time.

There is no greater motivation to lift yourself off your azz than experiencing what life is like if you don't.

PHeller wrote: Our current corporate culture is built around 40 hour weeks, 2 weeks vacation, etc.

^ This.

I get the side eye from many friends and relatives when they learn I work less than 40hrs/wk and work from home.

IMO, if honestly work 40hrs/wk (8a-5p), then I suck at my job. I'm IT . . . I have to look at ways to use my time efficiently for impending doom of the CEO's i-droid not working correctly before he leavds for vacation.

I also remind them, that when they leave work and fast asleep at night, I'm usually up working on various things to make sure all the maintenance is done so they can tweet/blog/post about the type of pajamas they wore last night to bed . . .

Keith Tanner wrote:

PHeller wrote: A lot of tradesmen get time off, it's just called "down time" in between busy seasons.

Yeah, it's called getting "laid off". You work hard in the summer, then you live off your savings for the winter and hope there's something for you in the spring. It's not quite as easy or idyllic as it sounds.

it's how I do it.. I work hard from april/may through mid-jan.. and then it slacks off quite a bit. I used to collect unemployment, but now that I have moved up the food chain a bit, I get enough work through the winter to at least keep me from needing that

Working as a flat rate tech from ages 20-31 I know all about the ups and downs. It sucked. I worked way too hard for way too little money in my opinion. Plus the tool investment. Plus the body damage from being bent over. Guys in their 40s moved like they were 80. If I had a time machine I would tell myself to at least go into something that paid better when the work was around like welding or pipefitting.

SVreX wrote: It sounds like you are saying you'd like the hard, dirty work to come to you.

Nope. I'm saying we are willing to do the hard, dirty work in a place where we could happily settle.

It's one thing to say, "Why aren't you willing to do hard dirty work?"
It's one thing to say, "Why won't you move to another city for a job?"
It's even one thing to say, "Why won't you move to another city for decently paying hard, dirty work?"

It's another thing to say, "Why won't you move to the middle of nowhere to do hard, dirty, seasonal work? It pays well."

Another challenge:

How do you convince the majority of urban minorities, or any urban kid that he should become a welder and move out to the Dakota to work around a bunch of less than easy co-workers in horrible conditions when most of them just want to play basketball and become rappers?

I think the most difficult thing about our current workforce is that those who need jobs the most would typically be your blue collar labor are those who most separated from the areas where we need tradesmen.

Suburban kids go to college, urban kids go to jail, rural kids get into trades. It's a bad situation.

I know in my trade, it was not that long ago that if you were not related to somebody already in it, you were not getting in. I was one of the first to sneak in as the informal "rules" were relaxed as the oldest generation in the Union retired and died off.

One of the guys spent 35 years as an apprentice because they would not vote him in

SVreX wrote: A quick look at some of your occupations... ...Engineer, Journalist, 4 year degree, County Planner, Electrical Designer, Architect, Production Control Analyst, CAD Specialist, Web Developer, IT guy... With all due respect, guys, I don't think you represent the demographic Mr. Rowe is advocating. The complaints in this thread looking for "flexibility", "freedom", "vacation time", "cool work environments", "40 hour work weeks (or less)" are EXACTLY what he is opposed to. Hard work in the manual trades OFTEN means long hours, and it is unlikely you will ever have a flex schedule. You work when there is work. You work when the crew works. You work round the clock when there is something dirty to do. You work when the weather allows. The ENTIRE POINT is that there are opportunities in these types of trades, and too few people willing to do them in the manner and terms that the jobs require. I've worked in manual trades my entire life. I don't know anyone who has never worked an 80 hour week, never worked on weekends, never worked without overtime pay or vacation time, never worked without stopping for breaks or meals, never bled on the job. Power outage? Linemen work round the clock in the rain. Manufacturing deadline? Machinists put in long days. Stopped up sewer? The Roto Rooter guy doesn't get to take off Christmas day. Concrete not curing? Finishers work all night long under truck headlights.

I'm not sure I'd totally buy in that we're not the 'target demographic' because of our respective occupations- we're likely not the target demo because we're (by and large) not kids trying to figure out what to do with their lives. Like it or not, most of us are reasonably set in where our lives are and where they're going.

The kids who are being told that they HAVE to go to college and become an engineer, computer specialist, office drone, etc. and that's the only way that they'll ever 'succeed' or be happy ARE the targe audience.

I've often thought that the way I've heard Germany does (or at least did, haven't checked lately) this kind of thing would be much better- they do a lot of testing early on for aptitudes and the likes and pretty much figure out what it looks like most kids will be good at by High School. At that point, you go to either a college-prep high school to go on to college, or a 'trade' High School where you study a trade. Not everyone is pushed into the same path of going to college, and those who would (from their testing at least) be better at a blue-collar trade job than a white collar job aren't butting their heads up against a wall.

I've actually had discussions about things like this a lot recently with the GF as we're hoping to be married and be starting a family in the next year or so. We both come from very different backgrounds and careers- me a advanced-degreed engineer and she a ballet dancer who went straight into dancing professionally out of high school, danced for a while until the company she was with shut down, ran a business for a while, and now teaches dance and is starting up a non-profit dance company of her own. And frankly, I'd say that she's generally happier with what she does than I am with what I do at this point- so we plan on encouraging our children in anything that they show an interest and aptitude, whether it takes then on a path the follows mine or on a more manual/trade/artistic route.

The idea that there are not enough of one kind of people or another is an extremely arrogant one, and I think that is basically what Mike's foundation is built on. I have a problem with that even if I basically fit in the mold that is being promoted. I also think his numbers are bogus.

I am a high-rise window washer, a job that was actually featured on an episode of Dirty Jobs. I enjoy working hard and the job itself, but it's not for everyone and that's fine. There are plenty of jobs, especially if you're willing to relocate, but nobody's getting rich off this work and there are a suite of other problems that come with it. I'm 25 and already doing therapy to reduce the wear and tear on my body from repetitive stresses. Also, at 25, I'm running out of headroom unless I decide to start a business and that is a very difficult thing to do while maintaining a work/life balance or giving your family the time they deserve.

I don't think there's a single mantra that should be adopted by everyone. I think that we should embrace the fact that we have lots of different people who are good at doing lots of different things. Hopefully people end up doing something productive that they enjoy.

Ashyukun wrote: At that point, you go to either a college-prep high school to go on to college, or a 'trade' High School where you study a trade. Not everyone is pushed into the same path of going to college, and those who would (from their testing at least) be better at a blue-collar trade job than a white collar job aren't butting their heads up against a wall.

This reminds me of the quote from Shop Class as Soulcraft where Crawford talks about how not everyone is cut out for a job that requires eight hours of sitting still, much less going to school for twelve years before that during which you'd have to sit still for eight hours.

I was in my local machinists' shop Saturday dropping off a little piece of work for them to do. I've talked with them a few times, and know that they once told me that they could not find anybody younger/newer to train to work in the shop. Nobody wants go get cutting oil and metal filings on their clothes these days.

http://vimeo.com/20789680

"Who's the next me?"

Exactly....

Ashyukun wrote: I've often thought that the way I've heard Germany does (or at least did, haven't checked lately) this kind of thing would be much better- they do a lot of testing early on for aptitudes and the likes and pretty much figure out what it looks like most kids will be good at by High School. At that point, you go to either a college-prep high school to go on to college, or a 'trade' High School where you study a trade. Not everyone is pushed into the same path of going to college, and those who would (from their testing at least) be better at a blue-collar trade job than a white collar job aren't butting their heads up against a wall.

While I won't disagree with the premise, this sort of thing tends to play into the "class structure" we as a country rebelled against. Not that it doesn't happen from a practical sense - children from wealthy areas tend to go to better schools, get better educations and thus get better jobs. However, to direct kids at the HS level towards that sort of thing would be met with serious opposition from both the Right and Left: "What do you mean my little Johnny (who can't tie his shoes at age 12) shouldn't be a Doctor??"

This really is a socialist mindset and while we joke about how liberal the Left is in the US, in reality our "Left" is damn close to Conservative in Europe. This sort of aristocratic class structure and social direction is more accepted over there. Getting that sort of thought process to work in the US will be a STEEP uphill battle.

Trans_Maro wrote: http://vimeo.com/20789680 "Who's the next me?" Exactly....

That's a very arrogant thing to say, no matter who you are. I find that most of the people lamenting the ineptitude of "kids these days" are almost without exception completely out of touch with said kids. How much time has that guy spent actually looking for an apprentice? How many young people does he really know?

While individuals in my generation cover the whole spectrum of intelligence and aptitude and usefulness, the world in 2013 trains people to be good at processing lots of information and dealing with a dynamic environment better than any other time in history. Not everybody is the guy that figures they can learn to do anything between Google and YouTube, but there are a lot more of those people than there ever were.

Ashyukun wrote: I've often thought that the way I've heard Germany does (or at least did, haven't checked lately) this kind of thing would be much better- they do a lot of testing early on for aptitudes and the likes and pretty much figure out what it looks like most kids will be good at by High School. At that point, you go to either a college-prep high school to go on to college, or a 'trade' High School where you study a trade. Not everyone is pushed into the same path of going to college, and those who would (from their testing at least) be better at a blue-collar trade job than a white collar job aren't butting their heads up against a wall.

That is still pretty much how they do it. Or a significant portion of how they do it. It means that kids need to know what they're going to want to do by the time they are 16. I have only met one person in my entire life who knew by that age and stuck to their plan without change.

I also have friends in Germany who are bothered by the way things work and wish their country could learn a bit more from the American model. Their model is much less flexible, and is particularly difficult to be a freelance worker in. I have read articles saying that stifles the advancements they make, particularly in electronics, tech, and IT.

JoeyM wrote: I was in my local machinists' shop Saturday dropping off a little piece of work for them to do. I've talked with them a few times, and know that they once told me that they could not find anybody younger/newer to train to work in the shop. Nobody wants go get cutting oil and metal filings on their clothes these days.

When I was looking for a way out of flat rate I couldn't find any place/trade that wanted to train a guy with several years experience as an auto tech, but no specialized training in machining or electrical (the two areas I was looking). They wanted experienced entry level guys that could be turned loose without spending time as an apprentice. The 3 dealers I was at were the same way. They wouldnt train anybody, just turn Vo-tech kids loose on customer cars. I hear similar stories of no new guys today but the only ads I see want alot of specific experience.

I bet if I wanted to walk away from the cube farm and get into a skilled trade, I would have a helluva time getting a job in someplace other than a Honda dealer.

seems like a problem with no cheap solution. Either companies need to find a way to identify and develop raw talent, or engineers need to find a way to make skilled labor positions into unskilled. Look at PAX plumbing. Anybody can do it!

Trans_Maro wrote: "Who's the next me?"

I think the truest thing he said was, "I bet every generation says the exact same thing about the next one."

In reply to white_fly:

Sounds like nobody has come to him to look for a job.

I don't think he's lamenting ineptitude as much as he's lamenting someone even wanting to try.

I went through quite a few guys before I found one willing to do something as simple as show up on time and work hard.

Information is not knowledge. Just because you can google how to do it does not mean you actually can.

Part of the problem of "no jobs" also seems to be people who are unwilling to actually look for one.

They're probably the minority but back when I had roommates, they were on wellfare and had no job. They seemed surprised that I always managed to have one and was never off work for more than a week.

Their problem appeared to be that they thought "looking for a job" meant sitting on your ass, watching television and hoping someone knocked on the door to offer them a job.

Looking for work is not the same as playing warcraft all day, no matter how much you wish it to be.

white_fly wrote: How much time has that guy spent actually looking for an apprentice? How many young people does he really know?

That is an interesting statement.

I've known a lot of people who have taught apprentices. I'm not sure I've ever heard of one who "went out looking for an apprentice".

It sort of betrays the point.

Generally, an apprentice approaches a master, not the other way around. A master may have a desire to teach, or a willingness, but it is completely pointless to go out searching for an apprentice. If they don't have the desire, they are essentially unteachable.

It's different if you are a teacher. Their job is to expose students to many opportunities.

A master/ apprentice relationship is quite different.

BTW, it is equally arrogant to assume he knows no young people. There is absolutely nothing in that video that would suggest that. It is a total fabrication on your part.

SVreX wrote: BTW, it is equally arrogant to assume he knows no young people. There is absolutely nothing in that video that would suggest that. It is a total fabrication on your part.

I didn't say he didn't know any young people, but I don't think he's in any sort of position to be making generalizations about a whole generation. He basically acknowledges as much.

You're right about apprentices approaching masters. However, if you don't know the master is there, how do you approach him? One of my good friends is a guy who seems very similar in a lot of ways, except he's into Datsun 510's instead of motorcycles. The guy literally lives in his shop and must know more about modifying 510's than anyone else besides being a truly gifted welder. He's taken a few kids, myself included, under his wing, but all of them had to get to know him first which is easier said than done! It'd be cool to know about this random guy fixing motorcycles with a burning desire to train someone, but how do you even find him?

Unwillingness to look for a job is a problem, but I don't think it's a generational one. Difficulty in finding individuals with a good work ethic is a problem, but I don't think it's a generational one.