donalson wrote: another tidbit about riding on sidewalks... it's not legal in most places...
Add another tidbit- the only time my wife ever got hit (or hit anything) on a bike was on a sidewalk. Drivers seem not to expect a biker on a sidewalk.
Once she moved to the road, she felt a LOT safer.
carguy123 wrote:bastomatic wrote:That's the biker's responsibility to brake for people pulling out of their driveway. At least if the car doesn't see them they are moving at single digit speeds whereas on the road the biker doesn't stand a chance.fritzsch wrote: I stick to the sidewalk/bikewalk, I will never understand the bikers who are on the road when there is a bike path. Not only are they in people's way but they are less safe.That depends. Do driveways or roads cut across that path you want the bikes to use? If so, it'd be a lot less safe to ride on it. The reason I ride in the road is that drivers are looking for traffic there, whether it's a bike or car. Nobody and I mean NOBODY stops in driveways or coming out of parking lots to look both ways for cycle traffic on a sidewalk. Same thing when pulling into a drive from a road - a sidewalk is the most dangerous place to be on a bike.
Huh?
So if a kid was in the street, it's the kid's fault you ran them over? Drivers are not expected to look?
It seems to me that people have completely lost respect for the side walk- whether for biking (which I don't like) or walking. Drivers never look to see if anyone is in the side walk, or is even coming- whether it being driving up to an intersection or coming out of the driveway. A dumb driver almost drove over us TWICE while we were behind her car. I even hit the car both times with my hand- and yelled- "what if that was a little KID???"
It's a side WALK. Not drive or park. Walk. Look.
mad_machine wrote: Had somebody yell at me today at they passed (where I was not impeding their progress what-so-ever) "Get a car!" Yup... I am really beginning to hate people
alfadriver wrote:carguy123 wrote:Huh? So if a kid was in the street, it's the kid's fault you ran them over? Drivers are not expected to look? It seems to me that people have completely lost respect for the side walk- whether for biking (which I don't like) or walking. Drivers never look to see if anyone is in the side walk, or is even coming- whether it being driving up to an intersection or coming out of the driveway. A dumb driver almost drove over us TWICE while we were behind her car. I even hit the car both times with my hand- and yelled- "what if that was a little KID???" It's a side WALK. Not drive or park. Walk. Look.bastomatic wrote:That's the biker's responsibility to brake for people pulling out of their driveway. At least if the car doesn't see them they are moving at single digit speeds whereas on the road the biker doesn't stand a chance.fritzsch wrote: I stick to the sidewalk/bikewalk, I will never understand the bikers who are on the road when there is a bike path. Not only are they in people's way but they are less safe.That depends. Do driveways or roads cut across that path you want the bikes to use? If so, it'd be a lot less safe to ride on it. The reason I ride in the road is that drivers are looking for traffic there, whether it's a bike or car. Nobody and I mean NOBODY stops in driveways or coming out of parking lots to look both ways for cycle traffic on a sidewalk. Same thing when pulling into a drive from a road - a sidewalk is the most dangerous place to be on a bike.
In most cities, bicycles are permitted as legal vehicles with the same rights and laws governing their use on public roads (not highways though) as any other motor vehicle. If a vehicle is established in the lane, it is the responsibility of the merging vehicle (i.e. backing out of a driveway) to yield to oncoming traffic.
EDIT
voluntarily removed inflammatory comment...lets try to keep to the actual facts here folks...
Aeromoto wrote: I think you bike riders are nuts. I gave up motorcycles because all of the people texting and on cell phones and such. Whatever reason you guys have for riding a bicycle on the same road with cars, it's just not worth dying for.
I've seen more than one person texting while riding a bicycle. 
Minneapolis is actually a pretty bike friendly city; there are certainly problems with cyclists as well as with cars, but for the most part the two coexist here pretty well.
I stopped riding when my buddy got hit by a car. Brain hemmorhage, broken pelvis, broken collarbone and just about every ligament in one wrist was torn to shreds.
Sold my bike shortly after that. He just started riding again, three years after the crash.
I was on a curvy country road this weekend in my diesel dually pulling a 20ft gooseneck trailer...come around a curve and bikes are about 3 rows and 3 wide. some of them drop to single file while one row doesn't......there is no where to pass legally on this road for miles, so I'm forced to either idle behind them looking at the spandex, not going to happen, or move into the other lane and pass illegally. I could have really smoked them out, like a lot of diesel drivers do, but I pass courteously...hoping maybe they will give the next guy a little more room (not likely). Unfortunately around here scenarios like this are all too common.
BTW I mountain bike and have been riding motorcycles on the street for 20 years, but I am not out there holding people up and creating a traffic problem. I'm all for the bikers that ride the white line and share the road safely.
DaveEstey wrote: I stopped riding when my buddy got hit by a car. Brain hemmorhage, broken pelvis, broken collarbone and just about every ligament in one wrist was torn to shreds.
A bike will lose in ANY contest with a motorized vehicle. I don't care what the law says it's not safe to ride out in the street in most areas. I'll take a collision with a pedestrian or side of car on a sidewalk any day than even a glancing blow in the street. Those are survivable and the chance of serious damage are greatly reduced.
Cotton wrote: I was on a curvy country road this weekend in my diesel dually pulling a 20ft gooseneck trailer...come around a curve and bikes are about 3 rows and 3 wide. some of them drop to single file while one row doesn't......there is no where to pass legally on this road for miles, so I'm forced to either idle behind them looking at the spandex, not going to happen, or move into the other lane and pass illegally. I could have really smoked them out, like a lot of diesel drivers do, but I pass courteously...hoping maybe they will give the next guy a little more room (not likely). Unfortunately around here scenarios like this are all too common.
Which brings us back to my original post in which I protested WHERE most riders ride. Bike riders need to use their heads more. If it were legal to ride their bikes in the middle of the freeway you'd see some bike riders out there. It wouldn't make sense but "By God, it's my right!" would the rallying cry.
And BTW I ride my bike all the time in my country neighborhood, but I don't venture out on the "main" streets. 60 mph, no bike lane, 2 lane, windey country road. I like living!
mad_machine wrote: I do 30 or so miles a day, and I average just under 25mph for the ride (according to the computer and my riding time)
You are either pro cycling material or that is kph.
PeterAK wrote:mad_machine wrote: I do 30 or so miles a day, and I average just under 25mph for the ride (according to the computer and my riding time)You are either pro cycling material or that is kph.
Yeah--I have to really work to average 16mph and kill myself to average 17mph.
In reply to carguy123:
absolutely.....I don't pick fights with cars, trucks, 18wheelers, etc while on my motorcycle. Sure, a lot of times I'm in "my right" but if I don't yield I'm berkeleyed.
In southern California, you would find me on one of my bikes riding somewhere as it's one typical mode of transportation where I lived. Moved to Georgia, decided to blow the dust off my mountain bike and ride it into town. Within a mile of my ride, I had already turned around and started heading home. Apparently, Georgians hate bicycles and decide its a target for empty mountain dew and gatorade bottles. Havent ridden a bicycle on a sidewalk or side of a road since. Thinking that was 2002ish...
stuart in mn wrote: I was sitting at a stop light on my motorcycle a couple years ago when a cyclist came up next to me, sneered, "You're polluting!", and then proceeded to run the light. he got flattened by the electric bus that had the green.
now with more irony!
I've ridden on the road since the 70s. I'm an old, fat ex-racer but I can ride in a straight line and I'm as predictable as gravity. My problem is I'll be riding (in a local park where everyone - hundreds of roadies - ride) along at 20mph on the white paint stripe at the far right edge of the lane. The Prius/minivan/BMW/Audi/Benz catches me, and will not pass 'til they can put all 4 wheels on the other side of the center line and floor it.
Or they just sit there behind me accumulating a long line of car who are all angry at...ME! I'd like 3' of room, but less is ok. Just please drive by me, ok?
motomoron wrote: I've ridden on the road since the 70s. I'm an old, fat ex-racer but I can ride in a straight line and I'm as predictable as gravity. My problem is I'll be riding (in a local park where everyone - hundreds of roadies - ride) along at 20mph on the white paint stripe at the far right edge of the lane. The Prius/minivan/BMW/Audi/Benz catches me, and will not pass 'til they can put all 4 wheels on the other side of the center line and floor it. Or they just sit there behind me accumulating a long line of car who are all angry at...ME! I'd like 3' of room, but less is ok. Just please drive by me, ok?
I would be pissed at the guy in the Prius. Not you. And yeah, I've seen it.
Living in the mountains, there are a LOT of folks who come up here to ride. Most are easy to get around. Rarely there will be one "THIS IS MY ROAD TOO!" numbtard. Hopefully the ratio is similar as far as E36 M3 head drivers go, but I suppose not, considering a E36 M3head in a car figures the nuclear option is just running your ass over.
Living in a college town is (was) an eye-opener. I quickly realized how much MORE aware I needed to be, especially about things like not being a dickwad by parking your car on the crosswalk at an intersection. I was forced to ride a bike for a while there, and apparently, my fellow car drivers were not quite as observant. I'd hate to think of how bad it'd be in a non-bike-friendly town.
failboat wrote: oh, this thread again.
true dat... but I just can't let it go... 
motomoron wrote: I've ridden on the road since the 70s. I'm an old, fat ex-racer but I can ride in a straight line and I'm as predictable as gravity. My problem is I'll be riding (in a local park where everyone - hundreds of roadies - ride) along at 20mph on the white paint stripe at the far right edge of the lane. The Prius/minivan/BMW/Audi/Benz catches me, and will not pass 'til they can put all 4 wheels on the other side of the center line and floor it. Or they just sit there behind me accumulating a long line of car who are all angry at...ME! I'd like 3' of room, but less is ok. Just please drive by me, ok?
No kidding... I've been passed so close that if I moved my arm wrong it would have been bad... but as long as you don't hit me, I really don't care how close you are... also:
DON'T berkeleyING HONK.
Few things will make a cyclist swerve unexpectedly than honking. I know you're there. Just pass already.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of drivers on the road who really have no concept of where the corner of their car is... thus the need to pass with enough room to fit a semi between...
yes... I have seen LOTs of vehicles take the other lane to pass me.. when I am still on the shoulder. you really do not need 20 feet to get around me
And yes.. I am VERY fast on my bike. I can keep up with most if not all roadies.. especially when you consider I am on a mountain bike with road tyres (but not skinnies)
mad_machine wrote: And yes.. I am VERY fast on my bike. I can keep up with most if not all roadies.. especially when you consider I am on a mountain bike with road tyres (but not skinnies)
You are averaging 25 miles an hour on a mountain bike? Come on. I respectfully suggest you double check the wheel size you have programmed in your computer, or try using a program like http://www.strava.com/
Ian F wrote:motomoron wrote: I've ridden on the road since the 70s. I'm an old, fat ex-racer but I can ride in a straight line and I'm as predictable as gravity. My problem is I'll be riding (in a local park where everyone - hundreds of roadies - ride) along at 20mph on the white paint stripe at the far right edge of the lane. The Prius/minivan/BMW/Audi/Benz catches me, and will not pass 'til they can put all 4 wheels on the other side of the center line and floor it. Or they just sit there behind me accumulating a long line of car who are all angry at...ME! I'd like 3' of room, but less is ok. Just please drive by me, ok?No kidding... I've been passed so close that if I moved my arm wrong it would have been bad... but as long as you don't hit me, I really don't care how close you are...
I routinely get stuck behind bikers on the road I live on. It bothers me mostly because A) there are bike trails (both paved and off road) everywhere and B) my road is narrow, curvy, hilly, and full of blind hills and corners - its generally not a good choice for a road to be biking on.
Combine B above with the average idiot driver and its common for people to be seen of left of center, or right on the line, or generally not be where they should. I know exactly where the right side of my car is. I have no problem passing you but leaving 3 feet of space (the legal requirement in VA). Since my narrow economy car is almost 6 feet wide, I need to leave you 3 feet of space, and your width is 1/2 your bar width assuming you are riding on the while line, so around 1 foot, that puts me right on the double yellow. What bothers me is that since everything is a blind hill or corner, when I'm next to you and the jackass comes around the corner on the centerline (perhaps passing another biker just like I am doing in this example), there isn't really much buffer to react. Not only that, but if I pass you with less than 3 feet between us, but somehow you screw up and get hit by me, I am still at fault.
So basically, I wouldn't be irritated with someone not passing a biker. Sometimes there is simply no safe, legal way to do it. I frequently see people do it in an unsafe manner and it scares the crap out of me. More than once I have crested a hill to find a car 4 or 5 feet into my lane coming directly at me.
PeterAK wrote:mad_machine wrote: And yes.. I am VERY fast on my bike. I can keep up with most if not all roadies.. especially when you consider I am on a mountain bike with road tyres (but not skinnies)You are averaging 25 miles an hour on a mountain bike? Come on. I respectfully suggest you double check the wheel size you have programmed in your computer, or try using a program like http://www.strava.com/
I will double check tomarrow.. but I can do a thirty mile ride in about an hour and 20 minutes...
In reply to mad_machine:
30 miles according to GPS or according to an incorrectly-calibrated computer? If the speed is off, the distance is off, too.
Garmin-Cervelo might want to pay you a nice salary if you can go that fast on a mountainbike w/ street tires.
I am totally wrong.. I just checked the computer.. and I hate to say it.. it is in KPH.. still 16 to 18 mph is not bad on a mountain bike.. now I gotta figure out how to get it into MPH 
In reply to mad_machine:
16-18 is VERY respectable. You'd probably rip on a road bike.
maybe.. I tried one two years ago before buying my current MB. I can't stand being tucked up like that.
Now with a bad shoulder, I do not even want to think about it.
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