The next generation of electric cars

In reply to GameboyRMH:

In contrast to that, the only time I've been stranded in an ICE car was when I broke the exhaust manifold during a track day. Never on my way to work and back. Interesting how that works out.

Again, EV's require a long time of charge before movement if they are low, which means human interaction way prior to travel. The odds of human nature forgetting that is pretty high.

Alfa - you have little faith in humanity.

I could see forgetting to charge when initially adopting an EV. But once you've had one for a while I imagine it becomes the norm. You get out of the car, you plug it in. People will do it even in sleep-deprived-auto-pilot-daze.

I still think reminders via phone/email/whatever are going to be difficult to ignore. If your car is reminding you every 5 minutes in the evening that you are home and you haven't plugged it in... how long are you going to ignore it?

alfadriver wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: I get that there will be a charging rate limit, but I don't see how it will be a problem, at least for passenger cars. Like I said, even today's charging speed is sufficient when combined with a car that can be topped up at home, and possibly even at work. There are a couple of standardized charging systems already that all EVs are using, the Tesla supercharger system is the oddball proprietary one. H2 is an energy transportation & storage nightmare, and the sources used today are far from eco-friendly.

Time. It's a problem for everyone. Human nature means that you will forget to plug the car in. Someone already posted that they have done it multiple times, and they are car people. If I forget to "charge" my gas car, I can fill it up in 2 min or less. If I forget to charge my electric car, how long are people willing to wait? Mind you, people already speed to work to gain 1-5 min. You make it sound really trivial, but it's not.

these are already smart cars.. I am sure they can learn your driving/living habits. If the car knows that you work Monday through Friday 9 to 5 and it takes X amount of charge to get there and back.. it can remind you that it needs to be charged for tomorrow when you get home...

Flight Service wrote: This car will be a complete and utter failure. Not because it is electric, or a GM product, or "only" a 200 mile range, but because it is a hatchback. The only body style that sells worse in the US than a hatchback is the wagon. Which is sad because I like hatchbacks the best. This would actually get me in a GM dealership to test drive one.

...and yet there are a lot of Fits, Yarises, Versas and Fiestas on the road.

In reply to alfadriver:

you're right, i meant 800v+ charging stations as Porsche/Audi/VW, Telsa and others are developing. I'm confident that the industry will get there, and quickly.

Also the 15 minutes timeframe is given as it's longer than it takes to fill up a gas tank, but it's a reasonable amount of time to take to use the restroom, grab a beverage, check email, clean a windshield and stretch out ones legs. So on a roadtrip it's reasonable. I tend to be someone who attempts to make better time, stopping only for a few moments for fuel every 300+ miles in an effort to make the best time when clicking off miles, but stopping every 3-4 hours and taking 15-30 minutes to sit down for coffee and a bite to eat can make it more enjoyable.

Saskatoon has grown rather abruptly over the last 10 years or so, and apparently if 15-17% of the drivers here bought electric cars, the electrical infrastructure would be unable to support them. C'mon, higher property taxes!

gamby wrote:

Flight Service wrote: This car will be a complete and utter failure. Not because it is electric, or a GM product, or "only" a 200 mile range, but because it is a hatchback. The only body style that sells worse in the US than a hatchback is the wagon. Which is sad because I like hatchbacks the best. This would actually get me in a GM dealership to test drive one.

...and yet there are a lot of Fits, Yarises, Versas and Fiestas on the road.

And Priuses, Focus hatch, etc.

If this car is a failure, it will be because GM. The price/performance/range/size/body style all seem to be exactly what a lot of the EV market is looking for IMO.

I don't think I ever forgot to charge in the two years I leased my car. I occasionally didn't bother, usually when it was raining really hard when I got home, but that's something of a different problem. You stop, put the car in park and hit the charge door release button and power button. You get out, unwind the EVSE cord three turns, and plug in. The car honks a charge confirmation tone by the time you're halfway to the front door. It sounds like a lot, but it never was a problem.

The main annoyance was unplugging and winding a nasty cord after a night of rain, and somehow driving off with the charge door open.

ProDarwin wrote:

gamby wrote:

Flight Service wrote: This car will be a complete and utter failure. Not because it is electric, or a GM product, or "only" a 200 mile range, but because it is a hatchback. The only body style that sells worse in the US than a hatchback is the wagon. Which is sad because I like hatchbacks the best. This would actually get me in a GM dealership to test drive one.

...and yet there are a lot of Fits, Yarises, Versas and Fiestas on the road.

And Priuses, Focus hatch, etc. If this car is a failure, it will be because GM. The price/performance/range/size/body style all seem to be exactly what a lot of the EV market is looking for IMO.

Prius looks like a fast back as does the Volt. The Focus hatchback is the slowest selling model. Fit doesn't sell like the Civic and it should, Sentra outsells the Versas, The Yaris is non-existent on the road.

Sorry guys, numbers are numbers. Americans aren't as fond of hatches/wagons as they are sedans. Now, if you give it a lift kit and put bigger wheels and tires, it is a crossover and we love those. SMH

Flight Service wrote: ...Americans aren't as fond of hatches/wagons as they are sedans. Now, if you give it a lift kit and put bigger wheels and tires, it is a crossover and we love those. SMH

I was thinking that as well.

All of that is apples and oranges, except for Focus Hatch vs. Sedan. I am curious to see those numbers though. Also Mazda 3 Hatch vs. Sedan

ProDarwin wrote: All of that is apples and oranges, except for Focus Hatch vs. Sedan. I am curious to see those numbers though. Also Mazda 3 Hatch vs. Sedan

WRX hatch vs. sedan. I'm sure there is a reason they canned the hatch.

When I bought my focus hatch in 2013? the ford dealer sales guy said focus sedans outsold the hatches 10 to 1.

In reply to Flight Service:

Actually, I don't hate it.

it's a real shame that hatches do not do well in this country. There have been some truly good ones.. rabbit/golf, Integra, Civic, and even the saab 900... but they do not do well because everyone thinks of the truly horrible cars that were hatches..

mad_machine wrote: it's a real shame that hatches do not do well in this country. There have been some truly good ones.. rabbit/golf, Integra, Civic, and even the saab 900... but they do not do well because everyone thinks of the truly horrible cars that were hatches..

I asked my wife, who is a anti-hatch/pro-crossover person. She said that she didn't like how the cabin in the hatchback felt while being that close to the ground. The two didn't feel right together. Where it felt right in the crossover.

Of course, sometimes you just need to call it a crossover and add large wheels and forego the lift kit....marketing!!!

Flight Service wrote: This car will be a complete and utter failure. Not because it is electric, or a GM product, or "only" a 200 mile range, but because it is a hatchback. The only body style that sells worse in the US than a hatchback is the wagon. Which is sad because I like hatchbacks the best. This would actually get me in a GM dealership to test drive one.

Prius sales would argue otherwise.

4-door hatchbacks sell fine - providing they don't "look" like a traditional hatchback (re: Prius and similar "cam-back" aero designs).

A 2-door hatch? Yes. Unfortunately, I agree with you.

The Bolt pretty much mimics the cam-back design, which has almost become trademark styling for "eco-cars". The styling and stance of the Bolt scream "crossover" more so than "hatchback".

I will watch the Bolt with interest. Mainly with what the lease deals look like. An EV is the one situation where I'd want to lease since the technology is still getting better every few years. My problem with leasing is the 30K+ miles I drive every year commuting, but I could work around that with a back-up ICE car/truck/van (which I will still want/need for hauling my bikes around) along with my fleet of classics.

Ian F wrote: Prius sales would argue otherwise. 4-door hatchbacks sell fine - providing they don't "look" like a traditional hatchback (re: Prius and similar "cam-back" aero designs). My problem with leasing is the 30K+ miles I drive every year commuting, but I could work around that with a back-up ICE car/truck/van (which I will still want/need for hauling my bikes around) along with my fleet of classics.

To be fair, I think a lot of Prius sales are due to social acceptance and showing you're "green" than anything else. No way to know, but maybe it would have sold even more if it was a traditional sedan instead of a hatch. Personally, I'm a hatch/wagon fanatic, so I like it being a hatch. But most Americans don't.

I'm completely with you on the lease concerns, but I don't have much of a back up system at the moment. I suppose I could be a cheap NA or something like that. However, driving 30+k miles per year makes a lease impossible. That's why I'm thinking it'd be better to let them hit the market and wait for someone to turn one in 6 months later. EV resale value traditionally plummets, so maybe I could find a steal. But that's so far down the road, I'll worry about it then.

The original prius sales were probably due to that whole "green" thing.. but today, they are just considered a really good car. Nothing exciting, but it starts every morning, runs without complaint, and gets really good mileage.

They have also found a niche with the geeky among us

mad_machine wrote: The original prius sales were probably due to that whole "green" thing.. but today, they are just considered a really good car. Nothing exciting, but it starts every morning, runs without complaint, and gets really good mileage.

And the original prius was not a hatchback.

ProDarwin wrote:

mad_machine wrote: The original prius sales were probably due to that whole "green" thing.. but today, they are just considered a really good car. Nothing exciting, but it starts every morning, runs without complaint, and gets really good mileage.

And the original prius was not a hatchback.

true, it looked like a larger echo... but the point still stands

I'll say one thing I'd like about having an EV - not having to go to the damn gas station every 3 or 4 days like I do now. And that's with running the tank down until the light comes on most of the time. Honestly, that's probably the #1 reason.

The second reason would be fuel independence. Once every few years, we'll get some sort of catastrophic weather event around here that sends everything into a cluster-berk for a few days or a week (or more). Gas stations run out of gas or don't have power or some other situation where getting fuel becomes difficult. One of my plans is to install a natural gas generator at my house, which would also power the EV charger, thus making me completely independent of fuel supply concerns (fortunately, where I live if the natural gas gets shut off, it's probably due to Armageddon and I won't need to drive anywhere...)

Previous car: Leaf
Now car: 1988 Accord (because cheap)
Next car: EV, not sure when I can afford it, but I love 'em

mad_machine wrote: it's a real shame that hatches do not do well in this country. There have been some truly good ones.. rabbit/golf, Integra, Civic, and even the saab 900... but they do not do well because everyone thinks of the truly horrible cars that were hatches..

It doesn't help that some, like the Elantra GT have less usable cargo space than the Elantra sedan. I have an Elantra sedan, and had a GT as a loaner for about 4-6 weeks last spring.

I can fit my sons hockey gear and stick in the trunk of the sedan with room to spare, but in the GT the bag would have taken up the cargo area and the stick would have been in the passenger area. When he gets taller the stick will begin to pose more of a problem, but he can probably grow another foot before it becomes a real issue.

Not quite apple to apples, but if I was looking at Hyundai to replace my sedan, I would have to pick the sedan over the hatch. If the hatch had a cargo area the size of the sedan trunk, with the larger opening it would be a winner, but then it would be a wagon and not a hatch.

The cam-back style hatchback approach is more aerodynamic than traditional sedans, so that's the biggest reason why it's used more frequently on hybrids/EVs, etc where fuel economy is the primary goal. IF they offered a Prius or Bolt sedan, with a 2-3mpg reduction in highway MPG, do we think it would sell enough to justify the investment in 2 different body styles? Even if it would sell, would the manufacturers build it since it would negatively affect their fleet fuel economy numbers?

I am going to buy a flatbed RAM Cummins Diesel with a PTO on the transmission. I'll use that PTO to drive a 6KVA generator. I'll offer mobile charging service to any EV stuck on the side of the road for $100. I'll get rich.