THIS IS SCARY

waits for video of someone setting off one of the counterfit ones under their ass

All kinds of shiesty people out there. To be honest, these fake ones shouldnt be call airbags, but Claymores and be mandated to read "front towards enemy" on the front.

Airbag = explosively deployed pillow

Works well in the specified window though.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: Air bags are called 'SRS' or Supplemental Restraint System. The reason airbags were beating the E36 M3 out of people is the original spec mandated by law was a bag had to slow an UNBELTED person. In 1998, FMVSS 208 was amended to require dual front airbags, and de-powered, or second-generation airbags were also mandated. This was due to the injuries caused by first-generation airbags, though FMVSS 208 continues to require that bags be engineered and calibrated to be able to "save" the life of an unbelted 50th-percentile size and weight "male" crash test dummy. Air bags are a 'feel good' device that is used to sell cars. That's why now there can be as many as 11 airbags in a car and they all share the same glaring flaw: they are only good ONCE which is useless in multiple impact collisions. They are also useless at highway sppeds, that's why you see all those roadside memorials. The money and engineering put into airbags would be much better spent by strengthening the occupant 'cage', adding padding instead of airbags and improving seat and seat belt design to better hold the occupants in place. But that's hard to sell, so instead we get airbags. GAHHHH.

Wow, you really set on beliving anything mandated has to be bad aren't you.

It may be ancedotal, but I witnessed an accident as it happened, that an airbag probably cost a guy his life. It was a 50+MPH head on collision or a 100-0 stationary crash, Astro vs Durango. The guy in the Astro had his seat belt on with a blown airbag. There wasn't any intrusion of the other vehicle besides the left front impact about turn signal/headlight level. But the bag clearly blew him back into the seat with such a force, it killed him from his brain and internal organs shutting down. Both of his hands were still on the steering wheel as if he was still driving down the road.

Now, do I think he would have lived? I can't say one way or another. But clearly the way he ended up, leads me to believe without the bag, he could have in SOME capacity.

Then lets not talk about all the caustic crap in them that can kill you from inhalation and eats your clothes off of you. Or what happens as they age. Just like seat belts that are rigid from years of sun and heat....

foxtrapper wrote: Well, how many airbags do you see on the racetrack? That should tell you something. Curmudgeon has a point or two here.

Bad example, FIA have been looking for years for a way to introduce them in F1, it may happen in the next few years.

foxtrapper wrote: Well, how many airbags do you see on the racetrack? That should tell you something. Curmudgeon has a point or two here.

This. More then a point or two, He is right.

To try to say that whats required in street cars today is the safest equipment as can be is lunacy. Its not even the best stuff that is economically feasable...

You guys gotta drop the politico-jabs...

I've had personal experience with an airbag going off. Many years ago when I was first in the country I came to a junction where three roads crossed, one being a divided highway. I went to turn left, I looked to my right, but looked up the wrong road and failed to see another vehicle coming towards me from the other road and pulled out. We hit nose to nose, I got spun round and my rear hit the other vehicle a second time. I was totally unhurt, but even with a seatbelt on my head was thrown forward and deep into the air bag. If I hadn’t had the air bag I’ sure my head could have hit the wheel hard. Totally my fault and I rightly got a ticket for it, but I’m glad I had an airbag, an old spec one at that. I’ve got friends who have been in freeway accidents who are also glad they had them too, walking away from massivly damaged cars unhurt.

Also anecdotal, but if I had an airbag in my car accident I wouldn't have shattered my eye-socket, cheekbone, jaw, and have my upper right maxilla (part of your skull your teeth attach to) break completely off - requiring multiple reconstructive surgeries. Healing took a year, but I looked weird for quite a bit longer. (guess I still look weird, lol)

I was wearing my seat belt. It broke my collarbone sending my face into the steering wheel, which was bent at a 30 degree angle after I was done with it.

Sometimes I think I should just cage my daily driver and wear a helmet to work.

If we mandated racing safety equipment on passenger cars, how many people would not bother to strap on their harnesses / wear helmets / put on HANS / etc?

Gotta remember that NHTSA's mission is safety in aggregate numbers.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Ranger50 wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote:

JohnInKansas wrote: Did somebody say "Brazilian airbag covers"?

Wanna bet those are fake airbags?

If I can touch them, they are real.

I tell my wife when she points out a fake set that I don't care if they are real or fake, I'm window shopping not handling the goods so it's all good to me

You aren't missing much. The fake airbags taste funny.

Apexcarver wrote: If we mandated racing safety equipment on passenger cars, how many people would not bother to strap on their harnesses / wear helmets / put on HANS / etc? Gotta remember that NHTSA's mission is safety in aggregate numbers.

So mediocre compliance (see seatbelt ticket counts) of mandates of mediocre equipment is the answer?

And, Keep in mind, To maintain that mediocre compliance, due to this problems size and complexity, Laws have to be strict to the point where I cant legally remove said equipment for upgrades, Knowing I would use it.

Ever read Fahrenheit 451?

Ranger50 wrote: It may be ancedotal, but I witnessed an accident as it happened, that an airbag probably cost a guy his life. It was a 50+MPH head on collision or a 100-0 stationary crash, Astro vs Durango. The guy in the Astro had his seat belt on with a blown airbag. There wasn't any intrusion of the other vehicle besides the left front impact about turn signal/headlight level. But the bag clearly blew him back into the seat with such a force, it killed him from his brain and internal organs shutting down. Both of his hands were still on the steering wheel as if he was still driving down the road.

First, a 50mph head on collision is not equal to a 100mph stationary crash. It's equivalent to a 50mph stationary crash. The physics is that both vehicles absorb the impact so it's not at all the same. Mythbusters had a really good episode on it where they actually crashed cars at 50mph into a wall, into one another, and at 100mph into a wall. The 100mph into a wall car was almost unrecognizable as a car. The 50mph head ons looked just like the 50mph into a wall. I know Mythbusters isn't definitive science but the physics works out.

Second, an Astro van was for many years the single most dangerous vehicle on the "HIC" rating, or head injury criterion. It had nothing to do with the airbag and more to do with the structure that was NOT airbag that the driver could hit. I would take that anecdote and throw it out as it is not an indictment of the airbag in any way - it is an indictment of Astro vans.

Keith Tanner wrote:

bravenrace wrote: In reply to Curmudgeon: Not taking that bet. Hell, you can see the outline of the non-original equipment.

There are tool marks too.

Tool marks!! How did I miss the tool marks!!???

BobOfTheFuture wrote:

Apexcarver wrote: If we mandated racing safety equipment on passenger cars, how many people would not bother to strap on their harnesses / wear helmets / put on HANS / etc? Gotta remember that NHTSA's mission is safety in aggregate numbers.

So mediocre compliance (see seatbelt ticket counts) of mandates of mediocre equipment is the answer? And, Keep in mind, To maintain that mediocre compliance, due to this problems size and complexity, Laws have to be strict to the point where I cant legally remove said equipment for upgrades, Knowing I would use it. Ever read Fahrenheit 451?

Never read that, but I'll bite for the rest of it.

If you look at it from the regulator side, you could either create an approval system (taxpayer $$, lots of system barriers) or risk letting someone decide that rubber bands are A-OK as seatbelts or doing 5pt harnesses with no rollover protection. Which would be to make life easier for a small number of enthuasts.

I know you want to be indignant that the government is trying to "save you from yourself", but look around at people in large numbers! Seriously!

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Ranger50 wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote:

JohnInKansas wrote: Did somebody say "Brazilian airbag covers"?

Wanna bet those are fake airbags?

If I can touch them, they are real.

I tell my wife when she points out a fake set that I don't care if they are real or fake, I'm window shopping not handling the goods so it's all good to me

You aren't missing much. The fake airbags taste funny.

Salty?

Apexcarver wrote:

BobOfTheFuture wrote:

Apexcarver wrote: If we mandated racing safety equipment on passenger cars, how many people would not bother to strap on their harnesses / wear helmets / put on HANS / etc? Gotta remember that NHTSA's mission is safety in aggregate numbers.

So mediocre compliance (see seatbelt ticket counts) of mandates of mediocre equipment is the answer? And, Keep in mind, To maintain that mediocre compliance, due to this problems size and complexity, Laws have to be strict to the point where I cant legally remove said equipment for upgrades, Knowing I would use it. Ever read Fahrenheit 451?

Never read that, but I'll bite for the rest of it. If you look at it from the regulator side, you could either create an approval system (taxpayer $$, lots of system barriers) or risk letting someone decide that rubber bands are A-OK as seatbelts or doing 5pt harnesses with no rollover protection. Which would be to make life easier for a small number of enthuasts. I know you want to be indignant that the government is trying to "save you from yourself", but look around at people in large numbers! Seriously!

Risking 'letting' someone decide that rubber bands are good is no different then risking letting someone drink bleach or jump infront of a speeding train. Its common knowlege and plenty of experts reminding you reqularly its not a good idea. Trying to regulate either of these beyond passive spread of knowlege is a fools errand and poor economics. The 'save you from yourself' argument is a strawman argument, at least when you are talking to me. Its purely about sense, Not Liberty, or politics.

BobOfTheFuture wrote: Risking 'letting' someone decide that rubber bands are good is no different then risking letting someone drink bleach or jump infront of a speeding train. Its common knowlege and plenty of experts reminding you reqularly its not a good idea. Trying to regulate either of these beyond passive spread of knowlege is a fools errand and poor economics. The 'save you from yourself' argument is a strawman argument, at least when you are talking to me. Its purely about sense, Not Liberty, or politics.

You can not reasonably expect every single consumer to understand exactly what makes a car safe. That is a far more complex equation than "don't drink bleach." Equating the two is like equating arithmetic with multivariable calculus. They are not the same.

Some regulation is good, and making cars be safe in order to sell them is good.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I've had personal experience with an airbag going off. Many years ago when I was first in the country I came to a junction where three roads crossed, one being a divided highway. I went to turn left, I looked to my right, but looked up the wrong road and failed to see another vehicle coming towards me from the other road and pulled out. We hit nose to nose, I got spun round and my rear hit the other vehicle a second time. I was totally unhurt, but even with a seatbelt on my head was thrown forward and deep into the air bag. If I hadn’t had the air bag I’ sure my head could have hit the wheel hard. Totally my fault and I rightly got a ticket for it, but I’m glad I had an airbag, an old spec one at that. I’ve got friends who have been in freeway accidents who are also glad they had them too, walking away from massivly damaged cars unhurt.

Ever notice that on a lot of cars when you open the drivers' door the odometer lights up, displays the mileage? Ever wonder why?

Some time back an insurance adjuster was looking at a car which had been involved in an accident. He leaned in and turned the ignition switch on to get the mileage. For some reason this set off the drivers' air bag which had the unfortunate side effect of killing him almost instantly. I'm hard pressed to see how a decently rigid crash structure combined with properly placed padding would kill someone when they turned the ignition on.

Just because something is mandated does not mean I don't agree with it, for instance I'm all for the rollover roof crush standards (which dovetails nicely with the idea of a stronger safety cage). I disagree with mandated feelgood things which do not truly enhance safety except in limited circumstances.

As far as F1 requiring airbags, I'd like to ask the gang that it's been how long? since the last death or serious injury in F1? The answer: Ayrton Senna in 1994. So it's been 18 years and no one has been killed. Yes there have been some horrendous crashes, some worse than the one which killed Senna. That tells me the cars are properly constructed, or at least as well as human beings can make them. So what's an airbag supposed to accomplish?

Kinda makes that whole quick disconnect thing a pain doesn't it? Can you imagine getting a short that set off an airbag as you wer trying to put your steering wheel on?

Matt B wrote: Also anecdotal, but if I had an airbag in my car accident I wouldn't have shattered my eye-socket, cheekbone, jaw, and have my upper right maxilla (part of your skull your teeth attach to) break completely off - requiring multiple reconstructive surgeries. Healing took a year, but I looked weird for quite a bit longer. (guess I still look weird, lol) I was wearing my seat belt. It broke my collarbone sending my face into the steering wheel, which was bent at a 30 degree angle after I was done with it. Sometimes I think I should just cage my daily driver and wear a helmet to work.

Injuries like that are one reason seat belts now have 'pretensioners'. In an accident, a pyrotechnic in the belt (can be either in the buckle or the reel end) will yank the belt tight, thus minimizing the stretch of the webbing and the slack required for the belt to be comfortable. It also clamps the person back against the seat, very similar to the way a race harness has to be TIGHT to properly do its job.

Used to be they had only a 'ratchet' mechanism which allowed the belt to come out another 3-6" before they 'grabbed'. That let people get too close to that high powered FMVSS 208 airbag.

Airbags are only regulated to protect unbelted passengers in this country. Most are belted, and, in my opinion, superior. I actually DO appreciate having airbags in my cars, and was very careful not to buy a wreck n' fix because of this exact issue. I have a friend who worked for an airbag manufacturer, and I've watched enough crash tests to realize that they can help in catastrophic accidents more than they hurt (and they can hurt) in less-than-catastrophic accidents.

Race cars don't have them because they instead have super restrictive racing seats, no retractors on any of the belts, five or six point belts rather than three, window nets to prevent you from losing a limb or three, plexiglass windows that won't shatter, and everything in the car is built not to move with all of that safety equipment. All that and folks still die. Think of the HANS device, it's basically like a permanently inflated steering wheel airbag. I'll take it.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Ranger50 wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote:

JohnInKansas wrote: Did somebody say "Brazilian airbag covers"?

Wanna bet those are fake airbags?

If I can touch them, they are real.

I tell my wife when she points out a fake set that I don't care if they are real or fake, I'm window shopping not handling the goods so it's all good to me

You aren't missing much. The fake airbags taste funny.

Salty?

Never noticed a taste difference, I guess I gotta find a few more sets to do some scientific comparisons on, along with some naturals as a control group. Of course, I'll need them all at the same time...

Curmudgeon wrote: Used to be they had only a 'ratchet' mechanism which allowed the belt to come out another 3-6" before they 'grabbed'. That let people get too close to that high powered FMVSS 208 airbag.

Interesting - do you know when manufacturers started moving away from the ratcheting system?

For the record, I was in a 89 Merc Cougar at the time.

I want to say the move toward the pretensioner system was in 1998, about the same time the standards for airbag 'power' were revised. IIRC the two had to be done at the same time, as the weaker airbags would not necessarily 'save' that 50th percentile person without some help.

'Reel side' pretensioner:

'Buckle side' pretensioner:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I would never consider a DD without airbags. Yes as a toy I'll have an airbag free car, but I'll accept the risk knowing I'll likely be doing 1-2k miles a year, not 15-25K, also the times I'll drive it will be outside of peak traffic density, crappy weather etc. so the chances of becoming involved in an accident are far lower. And as my kids learn to drive, they are not heading out in an airbag free car. To me the argument that in the past with old style airbags some people have been tragically injured or killed is the same as when people used to argue against seat belts because someone’s brothers sisters relative knew a mail man who drowned due to being caught by his seatbelt when his car went in a river. It's an argument that easily omits the thousands of lives saved and serious injuries avoided by having them there.

Also the argument that F1 doesn’t need any form of safety improvement because it's been many years since someone died in a car is so pathetic as to not need responding too. For the record the last death I know of was Fritz Glatz driving a 96 Arrows in a 2002 BOSS GP event.

Curmudgeon wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Ranger50 wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote:

JohnInKansas wrote: Did somebody say "Brazilian airbag covers"?

Wanna bet those are fake airbags?

If I can touch them, they are real.

I tell my wife when she points out a fake set that I don't care if they are real or fake, I'm window shopping not handling the goods so it's all good to me

You aren't missing much. The fake airbags taste funny.

Salty?

Never noticed a taste difference, I guess I gotta find a few more sets to do some scientific comparisons on, along with some naturals as a control group. Of course, I'll need them all at the same time...

Volunteers could be difficult all at the same time, you might have to pay for test subjects!!!

foxtrapper wrote: Well, how many airbags do you see on the racetrack? That should tell you something. Curmudgeon has a point or two here.

I don't usually wear full racing gear, helmet, HANS, 6-point harnesses, and have a roll cage around me when I drive on the street. YMMV.