NBraun
NBraun Reader
8/17/21 2:45 p.m.

I realize, this is an incredibly vague question. I know there are some guys on here that have experience with this.

 

I went to school for precision Ag, have worked for a college since 2016 in a research role. I don't hate my job, but I'm also not real jazzed about it. We bought a house a year ago, and started doing a bunch of projects and really enjoyed it. Mild dirt work around the property, grading gravel, some woodworking projects. We bought a backhoe earlier this year and took a bunch of stumps out, Replaced a hydrant. The most recent project we are working on which made really think about this was replacing the foundation on a small 6x12 addition of our house. Removing the old foundation and digging out around the house so we can install a footer, then building the brick wall etc. I really enjoyed the process, even if it was hard work.

 

I realize that this is my project, on my house, and that I don't do it for work everyday, so I may be looking at it through rose colored glasses. It has however made me want to learn more about possibly getting to a point I could do it for a job.

Just, where does a guy even start? Money for equipment, getting enough experience on things, finding customers. It all seems like such huge hurdle to jump.

 

Care to share some personal experiences for something like this?

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) UberDork
8/17/21 3:19 p.m.

Block foundation? 

 

Best bet is to go work for someone for awhile, the trades are desperate. You absolutely do not want to start a business with a limited amount of hands on work in the field unless you are basically thinking of being the money backing and hiring a crew, I don't recommend that at all either.

 

All in all you are jumping a few steps with wanting to get customers, money for equipment etc, bluntly......that's how businesses fail pretty fast in construction. 

 

I worked for others, found out better ways to do it and realized that working for berkeleywits wasn't something I wanted to do so I started my own thing.

NBraun
NBraun Reader
8/17/21 4:13 p.m.

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Yes, block foundation. Should have used the correct term.

I think I know this is the case. Just a hard pill to swallow when I currently enjoy having decent health insurance.

Honestly I was hoping I would be able to do it as a side gig until I was able to bring some money in. Simple handyman type stuff, that a couple of guys could do with the hopes to eventually growing.

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) UberDork
8/17/21 4:38 p.m.
NBraun said:

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Yes, block foundation. Should have used the correct term.

I think I know this is the case. Just a hard pill to swallow when I currently enjoy having decent health insurance.

Honestly I was hoping I would be able to do it as a side gig until I was able to bring some money in. Simple handyman type stuff, that a couple of guys could do with the hopes to eventually growing.

It kinda illustrates what I'm saying, you very much need experience before jumping in.

 

Health insurance isn't impossible with the trades, I wouldn't let that stop you.

 

Handyman stuff doesn't really equate what you are leading towards either. There is a joke that says something like " I built a dog house now I'm a general contractor". These people are usually the scourge of the trades, I'm not saying you are that guy but it's something to think about.

 

Ive been doing this for about 2 decades now for myself and a while longer in the trades, while ymmv I can tell you that these are the things that I think you need to do differently to succeed in your idea. Im not trying to be a dick so if it comes across as that I'm sorry:

 

You need at least IMO 5 years experience in your trade before thinking about going off on your own, if you wanna just do it part time that means at least double that. I cannot stress this enough.....mistakes you make in construction are tangible real life things that can cost thousands and absolutely destroy you. They are not like other fields where a little mistake can be glossed over. Do a foundation a little bit wrong? The house going on it is out of square/out of level/not to plan and costs thousands to change. You have fundamentally changed the structure of a house. This is just an example of exactly how much goes into it. And if you screw up your reputation gets screwed up too and it costs you a lot in the long run.

 

Do not look at this as "a couple of guys". Start small and stay small-ish, it's the way to success. This is also why you need experience because if you only got 3 guys, everyone needs to be at peak efficiency. You usually don't need manpower, you need skill. I've poured 200- 300 yards of concrete with 5 guys before. That's 45k worth of concrete alone to give you an idea of scale. 

You really need to work with someone in the trade of your choosing before going off on your own, I guarantee there is a looootttt you don't know in said trade that you absolutely need experience in. To me it sort of seems like you want to skip that step and go right into owning your own business. I have literally worked for a few guys that did it similar and failed hard, like......lost there homes, marriages and had to move hard.

 

The trades are a good thing to get into though, just do the hard work before getting to the harder work of doing it yourself. Like I said the trades are desperate for people, getting $40 an hour in a short time isn't impossible at all.

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter)
bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
8/17/21 4:40 p.m.

I did it the hard way. Bought a backhoe I had no idea how to run, bought a clapped out dumptruck and trailer to haul it on, and put an ad in the paper. I thought so long as I was cheap enough I would get work. And I did. But we starved (new wife and kids) for years before I slowly started to learn how to run a business. My strong recommendation is take a business course first, and get an advisor to work with you until you get your feet on the ground. Keep your overhead as low as possible and remember that when you are figuring out what to charge, it should always be thirty to fifty per cent more than your most generous estimate. And figure out your billable hours. You will bill about one hour for every three to four worked. And when you have employees, you bill them out at one to three or four but you pay them more like three or four hours wages to one billable. You can get upside down real fast. 

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
8/17/21 8:12 p.m.

Being the cheapest is just a race to the bottom.

Find a niche and be the best at that.

My boss (and I, and my neighbors) use a guy for landscape supplies who runs a small, single-axle dump truck. If you want a smallish load of something and want it put exactly where you asked for it, he's the guy to call. 

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) UberDork
8/17/21 10:25 p.m.
ShawnG said:

Being the cheapest is just a race to the bottom.

Find a niche and be the best at that.

My boss (and I, and my neighbors) use a guy for landscape supplies who runs a small, single-axle dump truck. If you want a smallish load of something and want it put exactly where you asked for it, he's the guy to call. 

Not being cheapest is good advice.

 

I tell people that I don't want to be cheapest, I wanna be the best. You will definitely get people that will try to tell you that there's someone out there that will do it cheaper, and they are right. I never try to outbid anyone, because here's the secret* ........those people are eventually gonna go out of business because they can't make it on their cutthroat prices. Just do a fair price and you'll be way ahead in the long run. You will have some leaner times when you start but you will enjoy the outcome 

NBraun
NBraun Reader
8/17/21 11:11 p.m.

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks for this. I appreciate your advice. It certainly makes sense that you would want to have plenty of experience doing something before trying to do it for others. I would never want to do something structural like that without near enough experience. Concrete especially!

I will say that I think Shawn is closer to what I was thinking. I like Farming (which is basically what I do now for research), but I certainly cant do that full time in this day and age. I like running equipment, tractors and such, and have experience doing so. The kind of jobs like bushhogging, food plots, spraying, digging a trench for a waterline, etc. Just things that come to mind. These are all fairly low risk things that could be done as a side job.

 

Maybe the answer is just buy the equipment, put an ad out and start, but I was curios to hear stories like bearmtn's.

 

Thanks guys

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
8/17/21 11:26 p.m.

FWIW, there's a local outfit around here that does small concrete jobs with small cement trucks.

They call themselves "yard-at-a-time" and it's exactly what it sounds like.

tr8todd
tr8todd SuperDork
8/18/21 3:48 p.m.

If you want to work in the trades, then start working for somebody to learn the ropes.  I suggest you pick one of the higher paying trades.  Better to be a plumber or electrician than a roofer for instance.  All of the trades are hiring.

Purple Frog (Forum Supporter)
Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
8/18/21 6:18 p.m.

Keep your day job.  keep your health insurance.

Dabble with having fun and making side cash with tractors and such.   Over time you will build a better understanding of the scene.  Then you can make an informed decision.

My "hobby business" can work me 50+ hours per week.  I make a some decent money that lets me play with cars and take my beautiful wife out for expensive dinners.  But, it would be a serious strain mentally and cash wise to try to support a family on what I'm doing.  The guys in the trades making the money have one of two things going on:  1.  They have many employees and they make money from each employee's labor.  2. They work for one or two "Patrons" that fund their existence.

The guys with a lot of employees are driving $80K pickups with their Costa sunglasses going from job to job checking things out and collecting payment.  The guys that are "one man bands" are driving beat up old trucks scrambling to get enough jobs consistently to make ends meet.

Earlier this year I met with my accountant.  She said to me,  "Frog, have you ever considered going to work for McDonalds?"  I looked shocked.  She then said. " You'd get free uniforms and make more money."    wink

 

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo UltraDork
8/18/21 7:57 p.m.

I have the same thoughts every time I want to get out of my day job and start a used car lot.

Crunch the numbers, and I have to net $4k per week, every single week of the year, cash in my front pocket after everyone is paid, in a business I really know nothing of, just to be right where I am now with 5 weeks of vaca, a 401k, and good insurance.  Take a weeks vacation? Gotta do 8k the next week.  Want some retirement?  Better be socking it away on my own, no employer match when you are the employer.  

Other than a big middle finger to the establishment and being able to wear camo shorts and hoodie every single day of my life, its not that tempting when the numbers are laid out.  

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy MegaDork
8/18/21 8:51 p.m.

My dad lost his job and went into freelance engineering work.  He did the work nobody wanted.  At a point there was a shortage of fire protection engineers so he took more work on.  

He took many jobs on Friday afternoons and drew up the prints over the weekend to deliver them on Monday morning (it was the 70's/80's).  Then he charged for the quick service.  

Then he went fishing during the week.  

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) UberDork
8/18/21 9:03 p.m.

In reply to Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) :

I disagree with the many employee thing. Those guys are usually up to their eyeballs in debt but have enough cash flow to make it happen. They guys with the companies bigger than that are the ones with money and the ones smaller than that also have money. There's a happy middle area that works great.

IMO it's the 5-20 employee range that's dangerous. Above and below are the happy mediums, I've watched dozens of companies fail in that range, and even worked in a few before doing my own, at least in concrete.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
8/18/21 11:58 p.m.

I was self-employed for about 8 years and I enjoyed it. You can work half days, every day. Any 12 hours you want.

Now, every time I think about buying or starting a business, I think about how much money I can make from stuffing the cash I would use to start the business into some dividend aristocrat stocks.

Easier to be an employee and build some wealth while I sleep by having some good investments.

I'm completely done with working harder.

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
8/19/21 6:49 a.m.

Step one is knowing what you are doing. To be the best you need the knowledge.

While quantity can pay the bills, quality does it better and you work a lot fewer hours. Finding an unserved niche is important.

I'm in the commercial and automatic door business. We are a small company with only 6 people. I don't bother to bid the huge contracts against the national companies. Those contracts are very cutthroat and not worth my time. 

The niche where we make our money is coming in after the national companies screw things up. We fill the gray area between the security system, access control, and door hardware that no one puts in their bids. Contractors, hospitals, and owners are willing to pay big money when they are supposed to open a new building in days and none of the doors work properly. 

I don't mind saying that we are the best in the business in our area. There are 4 of us that can solve any door hardware or access control problem they have. The other two make sure everything gets invoiced and nothing gets forgotten. 

We also do a fair amount of business for contractors that have been screwed by the national companies before and don't mind paying a little more on the front end to get the best job done right without issues. We are willing to handle all of those problems while the project is being built even if it isn't in our contract. 

I got my start when the national company I was working for was pissing off customers as fast as I could attract them. The area salesman was having the same issues. We got together and started our own company. We both kicked $10k into the company account. We drove our personal vehicles. The first year or so was pretty lean. My wife went back to work to make ends meet. 

I've been in business for 16 years now. We have changed as the market has changed, but we are pretty much still filling our niche. We are the door service provider for 4 area hospitals as well as countless retail businesses and banks. 

I will reiterate what was said in the previous posts. Don't be the cheapest. Don't try to compete with the quantity over quality companies in your chosen industry. Be the best. For that fact, be the most expensive, but give the customer such good service they don't mind the cost. You won't work as many hours and the cheap customers you don't want anyway. They are more trouble than they are worth. 

 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
8/19/21 7:49 a.m.

As someone with a side hustle ... the best way to ruin something you enjoy is trying to make money at it laugh 

That being said, it's been an interesting journey. I agree with some of the above advice about getting a bit of business experience/savvy built up, or at least have a good coach or people whom you trust that can give you advice/tips/etc (beyond GRM) preferably ones that can't not take your call/email because you are family wink and need some help. Capital heavy businesses are tough to start, and can be a burden, figure out ways around this by borrowing/renting as you get your feet under you. Anything you don't need, you don't need, especially the "perks" which I see people doing all the time as "write offs" for profit they don't even have. My paving guy drives a new 3500 Denali but that guy has about 40 guys working for him that pay for it, not him! That won't be you, don't think it is for a long time. 

Really think about the goals you have. Just want to do some "real" work and feel good about it and the making money is second? Do you really need a second income? How much and how many hrs/week can you put into it, does it have to be at certain times of the day or can you do it off hours? If you do want to try and make real money, do you have or can you get skills that are hard won or other distinctives that can be an advantage? Other local constraints/issues that prevent others from doing what you do? I like the advice of having a niche and owning it, but that can be tough for businesses that are geographically constrained (equip can only go so far in a day, etc).

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
8/19/21 11:07 a.m.

I know a few guys who run machines on the side. They do it to basically pay for the machine and/or the truck to haul it. They have day jobs. 

I used to work with a guy who had a landscaping business. 20 employees, 4 machines, 6 trucks. He said the mistake he made was charging too little. He went for quantity of payment of quality of payment. He got lots of business, but when he decided it was time to start charging big-boy rates, his customers complained. He had A LOT of employees who wouldn't lift a finger unless he was on the job site. The guys he called "managers" wanted more benefits, higher pay, when he started paying them, it was out of his own pocket. Insurance premiums for him, his family of 5 and his "good guys" were astronomical. He ended up working for the county in maintenance, and said he income overall was better because insurance for his family was cheap, there wasn't anybody to manage. 

The difference between a small, part-time excavator guy and a big company is that only one guy can run the machine. As a result, it leaves little time to do other things. Personally, I wouldn't want a part-time job on top of my full-time job unless the pay was really damn good and my wife could quit her job.

NBraun
NBraun Reader
8/19/21 1:59 p.m.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Thanks for the input. I appreciate you sharing your advice!

NBraun
NBraun Reader
8/19/21 2:01 p.m.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

I definitely need to do more thinking on it, and possibly look into some business classes. Luckily I do have several people I can talk to, who have started and run very successful businesses. 

NBraun
NBraun Reader
8/19/21 2:04 p.m.

In reply to pheller :

I wouldn't be against this. If I could work one weekend and have a little extra money to put towards the house/car/hobbies etc that would be great, but i'm not about to go get a second job for someone else, when i'm as busy as I am.

KyAllroad
KyAllroad UltimaDork
8/19/21 3:01 p.m.

My side gig is running a stump grinder.  Very low liability and super low overhead.  When I get a job I haul it out of my shed and earn $100 an hour with it.  But the work is physically demanding and I wouldn't want or be able to do it full time.  A couple of hours a day after work and maybe a slightly larger job on the occasional weekend.

The forum even named my business;  "Stump and Grind" laugh

Equipment is payed for so if it sits for a month without running, it isn't costing me anything.

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
8/19/21 7:00 p.m.
NBraun said:

I wouldn't be against this. If I could work one weekend and have a little extra money to put towards the house/car/hobbies etc that would be great, but i'm not about to go get a second job for someone else, when i'm as busy as I am.

So that kind of separates you from what others are proposing in this thread. 

KyAllroad is probably closest to what you want to emulate.

You've got some equipment. You've got energy and enthusiasm and a good back. You want to earn some extra money with that. Maybe gain a little experience along the way.

Honestly, I'd look at maybe doing some low risk type projects. Maybe start with General landscaping. I can't tell you how many people wish they knew someone who had a skidsteer or an mini-ex for around the house landscaping projects. Laying gravel driveways. Removing fill for a driveway expansion. Moving huge boulders around. Digging trenches and backfilling retaining walls. Moving materials from one place to another. 

I paid a guy $80/hr to run his backhoe in my yard. Removed 8 tons of fill. Worth every penny. Then again, he also hauled it away with a big truck and a large dumper trailer. 

You can work as excavator and have somebody else do the block/foundation/survey work. Just tell potential clients that all you do is operate the machine and dig the holes, and you don't do any digging unless they've had a Blue Stake and a Excavation Permit (if needed). Tell them your unlicensed and uninsured. Let them decide if they want that risk. 

You're basically just driving your machine on their property. Know the risks and the liability involved with that. Often times, its the homeowner who incurs more risk than you.

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