In reply to SV reX :
I've never gotten a bill that had an automatic gratuity except for very large parties.
I've gotten a million bills that have a "suggested gratuity" but a blank line where you actually write your tip in. Same with electronic billing. You can say "No Tip" or manually adjust it to be what you want before approving the transaction.
We always pooled tips when I was a bartender. It made us all work harder for tips, and if we did get a bartender who wasn't pulling their weight, their register would be lower and likely their employment wouldn't last long. If I got a big tip, I didn't hesitate to put it in the jar because I know my fellow bartenders likely also got a couple big ones that night. It was also a ritzy place and I knew I would walk with $800-1000 on a good weekend night. Not going to stress over splitting a $100 tip.
Tipping is something I do generously. Terrible service gets 20%. Great service might get 50% or more. It doesn't matter that I don't like the server, or they were rude, or messed up my order, they're humans who have rent, or a family, or a car payment. Their income is based primarily on tips because capitalism has failed to provide people with a basic minimum income. I understand when I go out to a restaurant, it's part of what I expect. If I got terrible service and I didn't tip, I've done one of two things: A) passive-aggressively shamed a server for not living up to my expectations and treated them like they're beneath me, or B) just made a server's already bad day worse. Maybe they just left the hospital where their mother is dying. Maybe they had a car accident and had to walk to work because they can't afford to miss the income.
That airport restaurant scenario with a suggested tip of 18%? Doesn't matter to me that the server didn't take the order or didn't give me personalized service. I guarantee that the corporation has the bare minimum staff working and I promise that server was working their butt off. Maybe not where you could see it, but $2.15 doesn't adequately compensate them for the work they do.
I would instead shake my fist at legislators and the corporations, not a $2.15 employee trying to get a nut.
In reply to Duke :
How about an iPad checkout that automatically adds a percentage unless you change it? I get that all the time.
It's a grey area that companies are willing to push the limits. Regardless of legality.
SV reX said:In reply to Duke :
How about an iPad checkout that automatically adds a percentage unless you change it? I get that all the time.
It's a grey area that companies are willing to push the limits. Regardless of legality.
I have never seen one that automatically ADDS one. I've seen plenty that SUGGEST a tip amount, but it is not added until I approve the amount.
I stopped for lunch at a place called Gusto (order at one end, pickup at the other.. "fairly fast" food) last week. I was actually shocked that they took my credit card and didn't have any kind of tip prompt (I think it was a Square terminal) on the screen. Nada.
Cheered me right up!
Self serve drinks and they had trash cans and expected trays to be dropped off by the customer but they had somebody going around cleaning tables. So I left two bucks on the table.
....Then last night I dropped my son at the airport. They had curbside baggage check in. I always give a couple bucks per bag. At a busy airport like Atlanta's.. Those dudes must make BANK. I wonder how long you have to work brown ops to earn the right to be up front outside.
Just to be clear - I don't want to complain about tipping people who are pay based on tips.
I want to complain about people who have have higher wage by default then I did for the first 18 years of my working career. My working careet than included manager, automotive mechanic, aerospace mechanic, and tech designer.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
In reply to Johnboyjjb :
I dont think I was well educated on the employer's responsibility regarding wages if tips don't cover the balance before. Or is there no obligation? Can someone elaborate on that?
When I was 18 (summer 2002) I was a whitewater raft guide and I made $22 per trip down the river. I could do a max of two trips per day. Often the day was much longer than 8 hours. Figure 10 hours average. In theory we were tipped, but lots of people didn't know to tip, and the loads of camp kids that came through during the week obviously didn't tip. My realistic wage that summer was well under $5/hour (<$8.13 in today dollars). At least it was fun
In reply to ProDarwin :
If the low wage ($2.35 here in MD) and the tips don't end up being more than minimum wage, the employer is required to make up the difference. The wage part is pretty much to have something to withhold tax from.
In reply to ProDarwin :
Non-exempt employees must be paid $7.25/hr or more by Federal law, full stop. if an employee is "tipped" which means the employee keeps all the tips and those tips are at least $30/mo, then the employer can pay them $2.13/hr with the caveat that if they don't get at least an additional $5.12/hr in tips, the employer must make up that difference. So an exceptionally bad waitress that gets zero tips will be paid $7.25/hr by the restaurant. But will probably be fired.
Now, that's all federal and different states can do different things.
One of the exemptions from the federal minimum wage law are seasonal recreation/amusement businesses. I don't know the exact requirement, but basically if they're closed a certain number of months each year, they don't have to pay minimum wage.
In reply to ProDarwin :
If you worked more than 40 hours in a week, you should have been paid overtime.
I doubt you'll get it now! 
I don't order through apps or kiosks. I don't pay tips in advance. If that's not an option I walk out.
Tips are almost always left in cash and range from 10% for those that shouldn't be waiting tables to 100% for those that were unbelievably outstanding or obviously having really bad days.
Regular stops always get great tips for future great service. It works well for me and them.
The people I know who wait tables don't want to end up at minimum wage sans tips. They make more money per hour in tips than minimum wage pays and cash tips can be creatively entered netting them even more.
In reply to ProDarwin :
Our raft guide in Glacier National Park was very clear that he lived on a lot of peanut butter through the winter and we needed to tip well.
Steve_Jones said:In reply to ProDarwin :
If the low wage ($2.35 here in MD) and the tips don't end up being more than minimum wage, the employer is required to make up the difference. The wage part is pretty much to have something to withhold tax from.
I agree. Federal labor law says you can pay server wages in a gratuity-based industry, but if the tips don't add up to the equivalent of 7.25/hr, the employer has to make up the difference.
Johnboyjjb said:Just to be clear - I don't want to complain about tipping people who are pay based on tips.
I want to complain about people who have have higher wage by default then I did for the first 18 years of my working career. My working careet than included manager, automotive mechanic, aerospace mechanic, and tech designer.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
The problem is, they don't. Wages haven't kept up with inflation. I'm currently making more than my father did in his last year before retirement, and I almost qualify for medicaid. 30 years of employment with the same company, four mouths to feed, and we did fine. That same salary is now considered almost poverty level for ONE person.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:Johnboyjjb said:Just to be clear - I don't want to complain about tipping people who are pay based on tips.
I want to complain about people who have have higher wage by default than I did for the first 18 years of my working career. My working career that included manager, automotive mechanic, aerospace mechanic, and tech designer.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tippedThe problem is, they don't. Wages haven't kept up with inflation. I'm currently making more than my father did in his last year before retirement, and I almost qualify for medicaid. 30 years of employment with the same company, four mouths to feed, and we did fine. That same salary is now considered almost poverty level for ONE person.
And my point is that is absolute bollocks for my area and my lifetime.
$2,000 in 2000 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $3,447.12 today, an increase of $1,447.12 over 23 years. The dollar had an average inflation rate of 2.40% per year between 2000 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 72.36%.
In 2023, the minimum wage in Washington is $15.74 per hour.
Effective date January 1, 2000 Minimum wage per hour$6.50.
That is 242.2% for minimum wage.
I'm not some 80 year old crank who cares about inflation since 1940.
The average salary for a Restaurant Staff is $18.55 per hour in Seattle, WA. This does not include tips but the workers typically do get them.
This is a similar salary a first year teacher makes in Seattle. And that teacher doesn't get tips.
This is what a grade 4 IAM machinist makes in Seattle after 6 months on the job. They also don't get tips.
This is similar to what an experienced grocery store cashier makes. They also don't get tips.
So why does the restaurant worker, especially those who are pointing you to a kiosk to order and yelling your number when it is ready, earn a tip when the others do not?
Johnboyjjb said:So why does the restaurant worker, especially those who are pointing you to a kiosk to order and yelling your number when it is ready, earn a tip when the others do not?
1. The real question is, "Why aren't those other jobs paid better?"
2. Because you're using the word "average", but not defining what that means or who it actually applies to. Mean? Median? Either way doesn't matter. The people pointing you to a kiosk and yelling your number are not earning that "average" pay.
To further answer your question: those servers don't have job security and have no benefits. They're paying out of pocket for health care and retirement. They don't get any paid time off. They are working a job with fairly limited opportunities for growth and advancement, that may pay better than average to start, but not over time. You're not comparing what a server with 5 years, 10 years, or 15 years experience earns compared to workers in those other fields you mentioned.
In reply to Beer Baron :
Johnboyjjb said:So why does the restaurant worker, especially those who are pointing you to a kiosk to order and yelling your number when it is ready, earn a tip when the others do not?
1. The real question is, "Why aren't those other jobs paid bette?"
2. Because you're using the word "average", but not defining what that means or who it actually applies to. Mean? Median? Either way doesn't matter. The people pointing you to a kiosk and yelling your number are not earning that "average" pay.
To further answer your question: those servers don't have job security and have no benefits. They're paying out of pocket for health care and retirement. They don't get any paid time off. They are working a job with fairly limited opportunities for growth and advancement, that may pay better than average to start, but not over time. You're not comparing what a server with 5 years, 10 years, or 15 years experience earns compared to workers in those other fields you mentioned.
Where are you getting your information? Did you look into this at all? Restaurants have been giving good benefits for decades. The fast food restaurant that I worked at 30 years ago had a better health care package than my current international employer, along with paid vacation. Currently, many offer health care, 401k, college scholarships- you name it. First item on a 2 second Google search.
Food chain benefits
Back on topic, tips are for good service. The better the service, the better the tip. The idea that everyone deserves a tip just for showing up is not only silly, but harmful. Rewarding bad behavior doesn't help anyone. Expecting a tip doesn't help anyone. Contrary to what is posted above, there is plenty of room for advancement for people who give good service. Not only within the company, but guess who they are waiting on? People. Lots of people. People that own their own businesses, or do hiring for other companies. They hire people that give good service and have a good work ethic. And good service is a great resume. I'd have to take off my shoes to count how many people I know that started in service, got recruited by customers, and worked their way into 6 figure careers. By rewarding bad service, you are taking those opportunities away from those servers.
Boost_Crazy said:...Not only within the company, but guess who they are waiting on? People. Lots of people. People that own their own businesses, or do hiring for other companies. They hire people that give good service and have a good work ethic. And good service is a great resume...
I tried my damnedest to hire a kid working at McDonalds a few months back. He was on it from the time I walked in the door until I was ready to leave.
McDs was working with him on his college schedule and helping foot the bill so he wasn't willing to leave. Can't say I blame him.
Boost_Crazy said:Expecting a tip doesn't help anyone.
Yup. We agree on this.
So how could we practically fix it?
Where we seem to disagree, and my main point, is that punishing service workers by not tipping them or tipping a bare minimum amount is not going to solve the problem and only serves to injure the people with the least power to change the way the system works.
I would love to see us move to a model like what there is in Europe where: service staff earns a livable (if modest) hourly wage, tips are optional gratuities for good service, basic health care is available and not tied to a specific employer.
How do we get there or somewhere like that?
In reply to Beer Baron :
I mean, I would not particularly like that but purely for the sake of the argument: It would require a rather severe cultural shift which, based on the genesis of this thread, would require reversing that trend of everybody and their brother putting out a tip jar.
While I absolutely loved the whole idea of raising prices, raising wages, and eliminating tipping at restaurants, the couple of places around here that have tried that wound up having to go back because leaving a tip is so ingrained in our culture that people just felt wrong walking out without tipping. The impression was that the meal was incredibly expensive because in addition to raising the prices by a significant percentage to eliminate tipping, the patron would leave a percentage of that inflated amount as a tip.
So if you wanted to raise the hourly wage of a waiter or waitress such that their tips were not a required part of their income, you would first have to get everyone accustomed to seeing significantly higher menu prices and then undo the decades of cultural shaming that the waitering and waitressing cabal has done to make you feel like a bad person when you leave without tipping or without tipping enough. And at the same time, you'd need to get people to stop asking for tips because they successfully transferred hot coffee from a carafe to a paper cup, put the lid on the cup just right so that it looked like it was on but will actually come loose when you least expect it, while at the same time spelling your name wrong on the side in sharpie.
wae said:In reply to Johnboyjjb :
Federal law does prohibit the employer taking the tips or allowing the management staff to participate in a tip pool. It seems like locally there's somebody getting busted for that every couple years.
On the minimum wage thing, though, the employer is obligated to pay the employee the full federal minimum wage. For a tipped job, they're allowed to take a "tip credit" which means the employer has to pay $2.13/hr straight-up, and then when the employee reports tips at the end of shift the employer is responsible for covering the hourly difference to get them to $7.25.
So in effect, you're tipping the employer rather than the employee?
GameboyRMH said:wae said:In reply to Johnboyjjb :
Federal law does prohibit the employer taking the tips or allowing the management staff to participate in a tip pool. It seems like locally there's somebody getting busted for that every couple years.
On the minimum wage thing, though, the employer is obligated to pay the employee the full federal minimum wage. For a tipped job, they're allowed to take a "tip credit" which means the employer has to pay $2.13/hr straight-up, and then when the employee reports tips at the end of shift the employer is responsible for covering the hourly difference to get them to $7.25.
So in effect, you're tipping the employer rather than the employee?
No, the employer is required to subsidize the diners should they not tip enough.
wae said:GameboyRMH said:So in effect, you're tipping the employer rather than the employee?
No, the employer is required to subsidize the diners should they not tip enough.
That sounds like a smart-alecky way to state the same thing. Tips are supposed to be a bonus on top of base pay. This tip credit system turns a tip into base pay so that the employer doesn't have to pay it. The employer immediately gets more money out of that arrangement but the employee doesn't until they make enough in tips to exceed the tip credit amount, which is generally close to 2/3rds of their base pay.
With an extremely messed-up pay system like that it's no wonder the tipping situation is getting out ot control. Apparently in the US only 7 states +DC don't have this tip credit system. Get rid of this and businesses won't be incentivized to expand income through tipping because the money will go straight to employees as originally intended.
GameboyRMH said:wae said:GameboyRMH said:So in effect, you're tipping the employer rather than the employee?
No, the employer is required to subsidize the diners should they not tip enough.
That sounds like a smart-alecky way to state the same thing. Tips are supposed to be a bonus on top of base pay. This tip credit system turns a tip into base pay so that the employer doesn't have to pay it. The employer immediately gets more money out of that arrangement but the employee doesn't until they make enough in tips to exceed the tip credit amount, which is generally close to 2/3rds of their base pay.
With an extremely messed-up pay system like that it's no wonder the tipping situation is getting out ot control. Apparently in the US only 7 states +DC don't have this tip credit system. Get rid of this and businesses won't be incentivized to expand income through tipping because the money will go straight to employees as originally intended.
I mean, yeah, that's exactly how I intended it because I thought the same thing about your statement. In effect, the law says that the employee must get 100% of their tips in order to claim the tip credit. So, in effect, you're tipping the employee. Federal law says that there is a minimum wage of $7.25. If the employee can get $5.12 of that from tips, federal law says the business is in compliance if they only pay the worker $2.13/hr.
And, honestly, if you're working as a waiter or waitress and you're not clocking at least $5/hr in tips you either need to find a busier establishment or a different job. 18% on a single $28 check would be $5 and you're at the federal minimum right there. Surely you'd have more than one party of two per hour?
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