Tonight's Tony Stewart/Kevin Ward Jr. incident

SVreX wrote:

Driven5 wrote: In reply to SVreX: By that logic we shouldn't need rules that require cars to stop racing for position and slow for yellow flags, or come to a complete stop for red flags either. It should just be left up to the discretion of a mob of competition fueled adrenaline junkies.

No. Rules define the game. Flag rules, etc, are not inherently understood, they have to be explained and defined. Rules that try to define behavior and make people act right regarding things that are commonly understood are doomed to failure. If you have a "Don't run in traffic" rule, you have to fine someone who is trying to save someone's life. We will also then need a "Don't punch somebody" rule, and perhaps a "Don't shoot yourself in the head" rule. And then we will have to fight about all the rules. (Well, he didn't MEAN to punch that guy in the eye). Rules create loopholes. They do not create a society that behaves right.

A. I disagree, this seems like something that's pretty easy to legislate against, and B. It doesn't matter, because I'm sure every major sanctioning body will have rules like this in place ASAP. If there's one thing that large organizations have proven over and over again, it's that they all overreact when a tragedy happens. A "stay in your car" rule is probably just the first step of what they'll end up doing.

At the very least, having an explicit rule against running around on a hot track may help avoid lawsuits, angry mobs and all associated knee-jerk reactions. Racers all say "why was he out of the car?" while the public is being told he was chased down and flattened in cold blood by a competitor who failed to do the job the first time.

Keith Tanner wrote: At the very least, having an explicit rule against running around on a hot track may help avoid lawsuits, angry mobs and all associated knee-jerk reactions. Racers all say "why was he out of the car?" while the public is being told he was chased down and flattened in cold blood by a competitor who failed to do the job the first time.

That is a fairly precise distillation of the facts. Well done, sir!

Flyin Mikey J wrote: One thing that I am unsure of... I have seen it said many times that he was running into traffic. I have a strange feeling he was slightly above the racing line, as his car ended up well above the groove after the impact with the wall. Methinks the camara angle and zoom effect makes it appear he was running in the groove, when its possible he was actually a bit offline. Another, watching the speed of the cars in the initial part of the video, its rather apparent that the caution, deservedly so, was out tthe next lap and the cars were passing by at a reduced speed. This is one that all of the major news outlets didn't seem to realise.

He was definitely on the racing surface when he was struck. There are two grooves on a dirt oval and sprint cars use 1 or most of the time both going through the corners. Only the top 6 ft. or so of the dirt isn't slick by the end of the night.

A kid ( and I say this because he's only 19 yrs old) I work with used to race a mini-sprint that was once driven by Kevin Ward.Today was definitely a day to talk about things.

SVreX wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: A lot less people got shot than if we didn't have rules about shooting people (Somalia doesn't. A lot of people got shot.)

That is not true. There are laws against murder in Somalia. There are no laws protecting private gun ownership. If convicted of murder, the courts will give 3 options to the victim's family: pardon the killer, demand blood money from the killer's family (about $20,000), or call for his execution. If they decide the latter, they would have to perform the execution themselves.

You know the government's rules only apply within a few government-controlled blocks in the capital though, right? A half-hour walk from the airport and you're in a free-for-all zone.

robin williams dead tony stewart can take a breath

Karl is right, the lamestream media will leave Stewart alone now and go baying off after the next ratings booster story.

if the lamestream media milks this just right and Tony stewart is not implicated in his death freakin Bravenrace gonna beat me for that six pak beer jeez us well played

moparman76_69 wrote:

Flyin Mikey J wrote: One thing that I am unsure of... I have seen it said many times that he was running into traffic. I have a strange feeling he was slightly above the racing line, as his car ended up well above the groove after the impact with the wall. Methinks the camara angle and zoom effect makes it appear he was running in the groove, when its possible he was actually a bit offline. Another, watching the speed of the cars in the initial part of the video, its rather apparent that the caution, deservedly so, was out tthe next lap and the cars were passing by at a reduced speed. This is one that all of the major news outlets didn't seem to realise.

He was definitely on the racing surface when he was struck. There are two grooves on a dirt oval and sprint cars use 1 or most of the time both going through the corners. Only the top 6 ft. or so of the dirt isn't slick by the end of the night.

Umm yeah. About that... how many nights have you spent racing on dirt ovals, wreching on sprint cars, or even in the stands? I've spent too many years worth of Saturday nights doing one or the other.

Most dirt tracks are a minimum of 50' in width. Ventura Raceway is as tight as they get and it is 50" wide at the narrowest point. Thats the equivelent of 5 lanes of freeway.

In reply to Datsun1500: I think it might. At no time when he got out of the car did he think he was in danger. He grew up around this and there is a certain sense of complacency that comes with it. If he knew there would be some kind of actual penalty waiting in stead of the remote possibility of injury or death he may have stayed with the car.

Wally wrote: In reply to Datsun1500: I think it might. At no time when he got out of the car did he think he was in danger. He grew up around this and there is a certain sense of complacency that comes with it. If he knew there would be some kind of actual penalty waiting in stead of the remote possibility of injury or death he may have stayed with the car.

Exactly, and if it's pounded into their heads from the time they start racing that going onto a hot track results in an instant ban it becomes second nature. Racing is all these guys want to do and the reality of not being able to race due to losing their temper would carry more weight than the very slim chance of getting ran over by a car.

And in a 20 year olds mind death is not really a possibility anyway. It always happens to someone else.

nicksta43 wrote: And in a 20 year olds mind death is not really a possibility anyway. It always happens to someone else.

Nor is it a permanence.

As embarrassed as I am to admit this, I lived in Tampa and often listened to a local morning radio shock jock down there named Bubba the Love Sponge. Funny childish show all the time.

So Bubba raced winged sprint cars, 360 & 410 and owns a high performance shop and dirt and sprint car team in which his twelve year old son currently drives a 360 winged sprint car. (I'm not saying he is a genius, because that seems really not sensible). He also owns a dirt track in Ocala, FL.

Bubba also claims to be a personal friend of Tony Stewart (and the twelve year old son has some kind of 'developmental' deal with Stewart) .. So there is definitely bias due to the personal stuff..

Anyway, to make a long story endless.. I moved and hadn't heard the guy in five years, but yesterday I decided to find and listen to his show, expecting an interesting POV.

To his credit, he tried to keep it objective.. He still carries some inherent bias. But he did about an hour discussing this from an dirt racing insider POV and it was interesting.

If you are inclined or mindlessly bored, go to YouTube and search "BTLS & Tony Stewart August 11, 2014".

I found it interesting.

Datsun1500 wrote:

nicksta43 wrote: So in your opinion no rule would have gave this guy pause to run out on the track? I don't buy it, if the penalty is big enough it certainly would give pause.

The penalty for this guy running on the track was death, and it did not give him pause. You think a rule banning him for a year would have changed his mind instead of the rule that he ignored that banned him for life?

well … he didn't expect to die … I mean he's seen all these other drivers do just what he was doing and every thing worked out fine … I mean they got on tv and and everything ….

yeah, I think that the potential (enforced EVERY time) of a yrs suspension might have kept him in his car, and not out on the track … maybe not .. but in that case he needed to find some other form of entertainment …. because racing wasn't for him (and yes I know he had something like 10+ yrs experience)

In reply to wbjones:

So, what you are saying is that it's not the rule, it's the consistent enforcement. I agree.

What do you think are the odds of consistent enforcement at all local tracks?

Me neither.

Like I said, it creates loopholes. In this case, the loophole would be "Well, Track A is great, but Track B is a bunch of hard azzes. I'll race at Track A", which will draw racers and audience, and will encourage Track B to loosen it's standards or loose business.

The other thing it would do would be to separate the "racing haves" from the "racing have-nots".

If there was a $10,000 fine, the Tony Stewarts of the world might not mind paying every once in a while for their antics, but the Kevin Wards might not be able to. It would create a bigger spectacle of the guy with the deeper pockets.

If there was a ban for a year, then again a guy like Tony Stewart might not mind, because he has great opportunities in another racing venue.

I understand that it is gonna happen. Everybody is going to over react. But "Don't be a dumbazz" rules are inherently ineffective and ultimately meaningless, because sooner or later people stop enforcing them because people LIKE being a dumbazz, and crowds LIKE paying to watch it.

Tri-City Speedway just across the river from StL put a new rule into effect. No leaving a stopped car on the track (unless the car is on fire) until further direction is given.

I give the guy a Darwin Award.

Monday afternoon the Brewerton and Fulton Speedways (NY) updated their rules for situations exactly like what happened Saturday night in Canandaigua. The new rule goes as follows:

Drivers are required to stay in their car in the event of an on-track incident. If a driver, for whatever reason, exits a car on the track during a caution period, the race will automatically be placed under a red flag and all cars will come to a complete stop. A driver may exit a car if requested by a safety crew member or if safety warrants in cases such as a fire. Drivers that exit a car without permission, for whatever reason, are subject to fine and/or suspension at the discretion of track management.

http://blog.syracuse.com/motorsports/2014/08/tragedy_involving_kevin_ward_jr_tony_stewart_leads_to_rule_changes_at_brewerton_fulton_speedways.html

In reply to SVreX:

So how would you approach handling this problem?

In reply to Datsun1500:

Don't underestimate how red a neck can get

I just think that the generations of racers coming up after this will still be more concerned about definitely losing the opportunity to race for a year, especially a young up and comer who has big plans, verses the one in a million chance of getting killed by a passing race car.

In reply to Flyin Mikey J:

I have spent many a Friday and Saturday at multiple dirt tracks. You're implying that Tony was purposefully higher on the track than he would/should have been which makes it sound like he put his car on a path with a walking person. I was saying sprint cars use the entire width of the track if its the preferred line or not so to say he was somewhere he shouldn't have been gives intent where there more than likely was none.

Exactly, the question is how to ingrain it in these guy's minds to stay in the car?

"Likes to fight guy" will always be "likes to fight guy", and maybe this guy was?