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z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/12/21 9:51 a.m.

Since I work from home permanently now (they are closing the office in OKC) and my lady also works from home, we've been thinking about getting a camping/travel trailer. That way we could tow out to a campsite, state/national park, and work for 1-2 weeks, and come home. 

We've found plenty of 15-18 ft trailers that loaded would come in around 4k lbs and fit our needs perfectly. We don't have kids, just some dogs. 

I'm not worried about any of the mid-sized trucks pulling that amount of weight. What does concern me is the giant windsail behind it and them being lighter and with a shorter wheelbase than a full size. If you've ever towed on the plains, it's damned windy here. 

Valid concern or not? 

New York Nick
New York Nick Reader
8/12/21 10:03 a.m.

I would say it is a valid concern. I have towed my 21' travel trailer about 2600 miles this year. I tow it with a half ton suburban. The trailer weighs 4,620 loaded (from a local scale). I have towed that much on a car trailer with no issues at all. With the TT you are more subject to the wind, to trucks passing etc..

It wasn't unmanageable at all, drive a little slower, try not to be too tired but it's more work to drive. I had a couple of legs of trips that were more than 6 hours of driving, at that point keeping it straight and in the line was a lot more challenging.

I was shocked at how much harder my truck worked to move my TT than an open car trailer of the same weight.

I used to live in TX so I am familiar with the wind conditions issue too.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
8/12/21 10:13 a.m.

How about an sway control bar on your hitch?

That Reese strut attaches to both the trailer and the hitch with an additional ball like this:

$58 sample

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/12/21 10:44 a.m.

In reply to John Welsh :

Yeah, we would do sway control even on a larger vehicle, just because. 

We haven't purchased anything yet, because prices are still stupid.

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
8/12/21 10:45 a.m.

Something I've researched quite a bit as I contemplated pulling something like a R-Pod 180 behind my minivan, which would be pretty much at the limit of the towing capacity.  Weight distributing and sway control hitch would definitely be required.  I also liked the R-Pod because the rounded shape seems like it would present a little less side-profile to crosswinds. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
8/12/21 11:01 a.m.

Another +1 for valid- we rented a 20ft trailer last fall, and when we got to 65, it was terrible.  Thankfully, the plan was just to stay on normal roads, so 55mph max.  Other than that, we didn't have any problems towing it with an Escape.

But because of that, when we put together our current camper trailer project- it had a pick up for the friction sway thing- just in the wrong place.  I'll move it eventually, and only put it on in bad weather.

BTW, do some more research- there are plenty of 17' trailers that are well under 3k lb.  Pretty much all of the new ones are fiberglass, or some kind of fiberglass composite.  Some really interesting options coming out of Canada, too.  You probably don't have the "fit into the garage" constraint that we put to ourselves.  But having realistic constraints is quite helpful.

One more thing- before buying, rent.  That was suggested to me here, and I followed it to a T.  Wonderful advice.  You will learn quickly what features are important or not.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/12/21 11:25 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

I should have added 4k, loaded. I'm figuring a 2800-3k trailer, once loaded being closer to 4k. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/12/21 11:26 a.m.

But I'm glad to see I wasn't over thinking this. Since I know we in America tend to think, "You can't tow with anything less than an F350 quad cab diesel!!!!"

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
8/12/21 12:39 p.m.

RVing is my life.  Not kidding.  In my 47 years, including the almost decade that I full-timed, I have lived nearly 1/3 of my life in an RV of some sort.

Your fears are valid.  When selecting a travel trailer, never (ok, almost never) use the GVW of the trailer to match up with your tow rating.

I will say that the shorter lengths you're looking at are more forgiving.

A story.  My friends had an LR Disco.  Tow rating of 6k.  They promptly went out and bought an ultralite 26' trailer with a GVW of 6k.  Then they took it to Sequoia National Park.  I drove it up with white knuckles, they drove it back.  I should say they drove it part of the way back.  Coming down the mountains the brakes overheated and they ended up with the trailer in a ditch against a tree.  Once extracted, they continued driving it home where a good side wind started a sway, and all the equalizing/anti sway hitch stuff didn't matter.  They ended up on their side and spent several days in a hospital.

There are two main reasons to avoid ultralites like the plague. (with apologies to anyone who owns one)  1 - they tend to be longer and see above.  2 - they are made with the absolute worst materials.  Think cardboard and luan.  I have been to RV shows where the display campers are completely wasted after a weekend; carpet matted, cabinet doors falling off or sagging, countertops that have settled because the floor is 1/4" OSB, fridges that are loose because opening the door pulled the screws out of the particle board frame... it's bad.  Mom and Dad sort of inherited an ultralite from the neighbors that was only two years old.  They have used it two seasons and it is absolutely wasted.  In one 400 mile trip, they blew 3 tires because they used the cheapest tires in the smallest size that were barely capable of taking the weight.  When the one tire blew, it sent so much shrapnel through the luan couch base that it ripped the vinyl couch like you shot it with a shotgun from underneath.  The insurance company is covering it, but the repairs are scheduled to take 8 weeks.

Friends don't let friends to ultralites.  You'll get 2 seasons out of them, tops.  They're designed to attract people into RVing by saying "look how much trailer your RAV4 can tow."  Those types of people are usually the kind of RVers who camp for 3 weekends a year; Memorial day, 4th of July, and Labor day for two seasons and then lose interest.

On the weight/length issue, I would rather see you push the tow capacity a little over the limit as opposed to adding more length.

If you were just recreationally camping once in a while I would say you can skimp a bit.  So your water heater doesn't work, oh well, we'll improvise and call it an adventure.  When your using it as a mobile hotel room for work, don't skimp.

Of all of the equalizing hitch/anti sway systems I've used, my favorite choice is a trunnion style equalizer with cam-style anti-sway.  They're noisy, but they do both jobs with one apparatus and they do it well.

Trunnion style bars are less bulky and lighter, and they're also not as sensitive to overloading damage during installation. 

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't even be looking at new trailers.  In the years between 1996-2001, the whole RV industry went kaboom. Every company got bought up by big conglomerates and things went seriously south.  I currently own two RVs; a 31' 5th wheel from 1993, and a 32' Travel Trailer from 1992.  Both of them, despite my consistent abuse are in beautiful shape while mom and dad's ultralite (from the same name/brand) from 4 years ago is a complete waste.  Both of these examples are Keystone, but theirs was built 20 years after K-Z bought the Keystone name.  On the downside, I do have to put up with Mauve in one and Mint Green floral print in another, but they are bulletproof rocks.  I estimate that the 5th wheel likely has about 80,000 miles on it.  It has been to Alaska, cross country 6 times, and across every southern Canadian province twice.  Nothing has failed on it except the fridge, which (now that it's parked permanently at the lake) I replaced with a small residential 120v compressor fridge.  The travel trailer is a Holiday Rambler.  The walls have aluminum studs and the insulation is structural foam with an aluminum skin bonded to the outside and paneling skin bonded on the inside.  The whole thing is a stressed-skin composite sandwich that can't rot even if you get a leak.

I'm rambling at this point.

Your tow rig and what you put behind it are also highly dependent on how far you plan to travel.  If you're towing 20 miles to a state park, you can handle more white knuckles than if you're going 500 miles.  Longer travel times can really harsh your mellow if you don't have enough tow rig for the size/weight.  I towed the Holiday Rambler a lot with an F250 that was more than enough, but on longer days I was wishing for a dually.  8-10 hours of being "on duty" gets old.

They don't make em like they used to.  Find yourself a nice older TT that hasn't been used much and enjoy.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
8/12/21 1:11 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

When you say "ultralight" are you talking just about the normal trailer made trailers or all trailers that are sub 4k lb?  It *seems* that super light molded fiberglass trailers are really good- like Casita or Scamp.  And there are a number of new smaller makers like nuCamp (TAB teardrops) that appear to be making some very high quality trailers. 

If you mean the mainstream makers, I'm 100% with you- the Amerilite we rented was pretty cheap, and started to dust apart as we were using it.  Let alone that it had a blow out on our trip....

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/12/21 1:37 p.m.

As usual, Curtis provides excellent info with real world experience. Knowing, in reality, we really need a full-size vehicle even for something smaller, pretty much kills this idea. Neither of us wants to have a Tahoe/Suburban/Expedition (no trucks as we need the puppers inside during transport) as our DD, even though we don't drive much. 

 

Guess it's back to just using our vacation and just going camping and no working. 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
8/12/21 2:02 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

As the owner of a 5-year-old ultralite, yes, yes, YES! This thing is the biggest POS on wheels. Stuff was breaking in the interior the very first time we took it out. The radio lasted one year. The water heater half works. I've had to replace the black tank valve once, and it's flaky again. The tank gauges bear no resemblance to what's happening in the tank. The OEM tires were the cheapest China Bombs they could find. I now have Goodyear Endurances on it, but they are still 14" tires for a 30' trailer, and that's always bugged me. The GFCI in the bathroom trips if you look at it funny. The original mattress was a medieval torture device that we threw in the trash and replaced with a $200 memory foam one from Amazon.

However, I will say that it tows beautifully behind the Expedition. The GVW of the trailer is 7600, and the Expy's towing capacity is 9100 pounds. With an Equalizer hitch, it barely moves, though I can still feel it in high wind. But I've towed thousands of miles through all types of terrain and weather, fully loaded with 4 people and 2 dogs in the car, and it's always been very secure. Drinks fuel like crazy, but it tows great.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
8/12/21 3:26 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Don't give up that easily.   Unless you really want something that size that's "lite".  

If I were getting something new- I would very much consider on of these- https://www.roulottesprolite.com/produit/CLASSIC/

03Panther
03Panther UltraDork
8/12/21 4:08 p.m.
z31maniac said:

But I'm glad to see I wasn't over thinking this. Since I know we in America tend to think, "You can't tow with anything less than an F350 quad cab diesel!!!!"

Like Curtis, I've been around a LOT of RV's. I owned and towed 5 different TTs and 2 5th wheels, and moved a few for friends. From 1997 to 2018 I traveled for work, so half my co-workers did as well. I have nothing to add to Curtis's comments. 
the post about the castia campers is correct... they are top notch. But come in at a price premium. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
8/12/21 4:27 p.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

When you say "ultralight" are you talking just about the normal trailer made trailers or all trailers that are sub 4k lb?  It *seems* that super light molded fiberglass trailers are really good- like Casita or Scamp.  And there are a number of new smaller makers like nuCamp (TAB teardrops) that appear to be making some very high quality trailers. 

If you mean the mainstream makers, I'm 100% with you- the Amerilite we rented was pretty cheap, and started to dust apart as we were using it.  Let alone that it had a blow out on our trip....

I'm speaking of any length of RV that was engineered to be lighter than it's size suggests.  You're right, the Casitas and Tab type mini RVs are a different breed.  I'm thinking the difference between a 24' Forest River versus its 24' Forest River ultralite sister.  Same basic trailer, just with cardboard and hopes holding it together.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
8/12/21 4:38 p.m.

Another important point to consider...

What is the exact tow vehicle in question?  I get flamed for this all the time, but I'm sticking to it.  Some manufacturer tow ratings are spot on and some are marketing gimmicks.  For instance, my truck is rated for 5000 with the automatic and 3500 with the manual.  I have towed 5000 with the manual several times.  Same truck, same suspension, same everything, just a weaker transmission.  I towed 5000 knowing that it's hard on the transmission, so I just drove in an appropriate manner to not make anything explode.

I'm not suggesting you should toss the factory rating out the window, but I know plenty of manufacturers who de-rate the tow capacity for money/marketing reasons.

I'm simply saying that if your tow vehicle is a Dakota crew cab with a V8, that's very different from a base model short bed Canyon/Colorado with the 4 cyl.

The tow vehicle's ability to control the load has to do with it's weight, wheelbase, braking, and overall rigidity (frame, suspension, etc).  Tire choice is a huge factor as well... regardless of their individual weight capacities.

Long story longer, with all of the vehicles I've towed with at or near their capacity, some were ridiculous overkill and others were a nightmare.  3500 behind my Impala SS was terrible.  3500 behind my B4000 is no sweat.  95 F250 with 10,000 behind it was great.  2015 F150 with 9000 behind it got a little squirrely despite it's equal tow rating.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/12/21 4:45 p.m.

Based on my trailer buying experience, I would assume that any new trailer comes with the cheapest, nastiest tires possible and there's probably a nail in at least one. A new set of tires and an alignment is just the cost of doing business.

Can't comment on travel trailers specifically other than to be a smartass and suggest you just go where the wind takes you :)

nocones
nocones UberDork
8/12/21 4:51 p.m.

I would try to find one of the small 2 axle "couples camper" ones vs one of the ultralight single axles.  My neighbor had one that was 2 3500lb axles and had a dry weight of about 3200lbs.  That meant it had a capacity of nearly 5000lbs (remember some weight is caried on the hitch).  Dual axle trailers (generally) are more stable and tolerant of less then perfect load distribution. They also are more tolerant of low tire pressure without a blowout.   And also just generally have higher load capacity.  

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
8/12/21 4:56 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks- while we've only been in one cheap "ultralite" we've seen them walking around the campground.  And that was our impression.  Your experience just backed up that impression.  And we expressly avoided those as possibilities (not just because there's no way they fit in our garage....).

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
8/12/21 4:57 p.m.
nocones said:

I would try to find one of the small 2 axle "couples camper" ones vs one of the ultralight single axles.  My neighbor had one that was 2 3500lb axles and had a dry weight of about 3200lbs.  That meant it had a capacity of nearly 5000lbs (remember some weight is caried on the hitch).  Dual axle trailers (generally) are more stable and tolerant of less then perfect load distribution. They also are more tolerant of low tire pressure without a blowout.   And also just generally have higher load capacity.  

I've seriously wondered about those- do you have examples, as I can't find one.

Since our super short and light car trailer is also dual axle, I was hoping to find one for us.  Just really hard.  It's almost so hard to find a dual axle small trailer that I imagine building one in my head.

New York Nick
New York Nick Reader
8/12/21 5:17 p.m.

So I will offer a small counter to Curtis' impression. I'm not going to claim that my 2016 Keystone Bullet is built like they were in 1980 but I have towed it several thousand miles. I've camped in it a fair amount, nothing near full time but it's been used. 
It had trash tires from the factory, I changed them. There is a lot of BS build techniques. Things like self tapping screws to hold on the propane tray. And the fit and finish of the interior isn't great. There are also some whacked things like the thermostat for the fridge falls off. The internet is full of easy corrections you shouldn't have to do but you can do.  

That said I do maintenance on it. I replaced hardware and adjust or glue or whatever. It's got a vinyl floor, it's held up well so far. No leaks so far, I resealed the roof. The AC unit is loud as heck, I guess they all are but it's a source of rage for the wife and I. I replaced the stabilizers because the stock ones were weak. Not a big deal considering what a lot of us do to our vehicles. 
 

Maybe it's expectations. I expect to have to work on it. I had to take the burner out of the hot water heater and fix it. Not a big deal, 45 minutes later all things good. Maybe mine isn't that light? Like I said it weighs 4200 lbs and it's 21'. I guess I point this out because I don't want to scare anyone off. I looked at plenty of 10-15 year old campers that were destroyed before I bought mine. I think the newer technology with smooth sides probably has some water repelling positives since there are less seams? I don't know that as a fact, that's a thought I have. 
I have no regrets, it's been a hoot for me and the family. 

slowbird
slowbird UltraDork
8/12/21 5:29 p.m.

Following along because my dad wants to eventually get something he can tow with his 2011 Explorer. It has the towing package which means, if I recall correctly, a 5000 lb tow rating. His main requirement is that it has a toilet. I also suspect he wouldn't want a popup tent type thing.

Sidewayze
Sidewayze Reader
8/12/21 5:49 p.m.

I'd be very tempted to look at something from these guys.

https://escapetrailer.com/

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/12/21 6:13 p.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

Something I've researched quite a bit as I contemplated pulling something like a R-Pod 180 behind my minivan, which would be pretty much at the limit of the towing capacity.  Weight distributing and sway control hitch would definitely be required.  I also liked the R-Pod because the rounded shape seems like it would present a little less side-profile to crosswinds. 

I saw a slightly smaller one of those, but still large enough to have a full height door on the side, hitched up to a C5 Corvette the other weekend.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/12/21 7:17 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

As mentioned, we haven't purchased a trailer or tow vehicle yet. The idea was to be able to tow it with something like a 2010+ 4Runner. Tow capacity of 5k.

Wich is why we were looking at shorter trailers with a weight under 3k so loaded it would be ~4k.

But if it's going to be a tail wagging the dog situation in the avg wind we have here without a full-size, it's a non-starter for us. 

We just are not going to buy a full-size vehicle.

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