Toyota Prohibits Left Foot Braking

Awesome. So a kill switch on the dashboard wasn't good enough why?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/18/business/global/18toyota.html?src=twt&twt=nytimesbusiness

Josh

Mr. Toyoda said: We deny that there is a problem with our company’s electronic throttle systems.

...well aside from the fact they exist and all

Welcome to my world...

(VW decided left-foot braking was not welcome back in '99 for the Mk IV...)

As soon as I heard this me and my boss were discussing what this meant for heel-and-toe and left foot braking.

I wonder if they'll do it with manual cars - hopefully not. There are already many additional ways to stop unwanted acceleration with a manual transmission.

Not that I see myself ever getting any new Toyota as a performance car, but it would be nice if they allowed a simple hack to get the old behavior back for those of us who know what the hell they're doing.

4cylndrfury wrote:

Mr. Toyoda said: We deny that there is a problem with our company’s electronic throttle systems.

...well aside from the fact they exist and all

Actually an E-throttle is absolutely necessary on a hybrid or any car with a robotized manual transmission.

GameboyRMH wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

Mr. Toyoda said: We deny that there is a problem with our company’s electronic throttle systems.

...well aside from the fact they exist and all

Actually an E-throttle is absolutely necessary on a hybrid or any car with a robotized manual transmission.

ZOMG cars are the new overlords

Say "Goodbye" to powerbraking on the IS-F!

I find the 'loss of steering' issue interesting. So far there is no such thing as a drive by wire steering system on passenger cars (there are hydraulic systems on forklifts, etc) so loss of steering would most likely be due to road conditions. Some years back, I had a customer who tried to sue KIA because her 'ABS brakes failed'. According to the police report, the girl hit about 4" of water running across the Interstate at about 60 MPH. Hydroplaning, anyone?

Doesn't Mercedes have a model with "steer by wire"?

Jensenman wrote: I find the 'loss of steering' issue interesting. So far there is no such thing as a drive by wire steering system on passenger cars (there are hydraulic systems on forklifts, etc) so loss of steering would most likely be due to road conditions. Some years back, I had a customer who tried to sue KIA because her 'ABS brakes failed'. According to the police report, the girl hit about 4" of water running across the Interstate at about 60 MPH. Hydroplaning, anyone?

Steer by wire, no, but for sure electric assist. And loosing power steeting sure makes it feel to the lay person that the steering has failed whether it be fluid or electric assist.

For the most part, same goes for power brakes- loose the power part, and people think they failed 100%.

In reply to GameboyRMH: ::rant mode on:: Not only that, but what will happen to club racing and showroom stock racing in the future when stability control, ABS, TCS, etc, etc. is mandated on all new cars. The future for us true drivers is bleak! I hate almost all electronic drivers' aids, even with the off switch (because some of them never truly disable or come back on even if the system is switched off). the 2012 regulations are written in a way that the performance test (FMVSS 126) the cars must pass will almost guarantee stability control on all but the best performance cars. Good for general public, but bad for true drivers. ::rant mode off::

back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I was watching Megaworld (?) on HDTheatre the other day and they were in Italy visiting Brembo. One of the Brembo reps talked about working on 'brake-by-wire' systems where the hydraulics were eliminated completely.

DO NOT WANT

CGLockRacer wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: ::rant mode on:: Not only that, but what will happen to club racing and showroom stock racing in the future when stability control, ABS, TCS, etc, etc. is mandated on all new cars. The future for us true drivers is bleak! I hate almost all electronic drivers' aids, even with the off switch (because some of them never truly disable or come back on even if the system is switched off). the 2012 regulations are written in a way that the performance test (FMVSS 126) the cars must pass will almost guarantee stability control on all but the best performance cars. Good for general public, but bad for true drivers. ::rant mode off:: back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I totally agree. See my dystopian sci-fi predictions in the "future barn finds" thread.

VW starting doing this in the 90's as I recall. BMW also.

It doesn't prohibit left foot braking, just prevents the engine from responding to the full throttle signal when the brake light circuit is actuated.

The brakes on my MkIV Golf were so over-assisted I couldn't left-foot-brake with any sort of accuracy anyway. So the handbrake was used instead.

Aren't all diesels basically using electronic throttles now?

My in-laws had a Pontiac Torrent that had an intermittent connection in the electric steering assist - my opinion. It led to several close calls and at least one ditching before Pontiac was finally forced to take the car back. At the time, they were told it was a "steer by wire" system that was failing.

Keith wrote: Aren't all diesels basically using electronic throttles now?

Technically, no. Diesels don't have throttles. They do have electrically controlled fuel, which is essentially the same thing- torque control via a pedal demand.

Sorry about the nit-pick.

Eric

You're right, I should have said electronic accelerator pedals. But the point is that there's no cable, just a computer in charge. I expect this has been the case for a while, but nobody's noticed.

I wonder if the brakes on my father-in-law's 3500 Cummins would stop that thing if it decided to go for a little unintended acceleration joyride. I'm gonna say no, because nothing can hold that beast back when it decides it wants to move.

Keith wrote: You're right, I should have said electronic accelerator pedals. But the point is that there's no cable, just a computer in charge. I expect this has been the case for a while, but nobody's noticed. I wonder if the brakes on my father-in-law's 3500 Cummins would stop that thing if it decided to go for a little unintended acceleration joyride. I'm gonna say no, because nothing can hold that beast back when it decides it wants to move.

tractor diesels (what most of you call real trucks) as well as busses have had non cable "throttle" for a while. I know a lot of info was taken from their development as well as airplane electronics.

Out of control diesels are a different animal entirely. They can be nasty as all get up. some will keep running even after you shut off the fuel- they consume thier own oil. But for car and light truck diesels, I don't think that's a huge problem.... Still, I'm with you in not wanting to encounter a 3500 Cummins with a stuck pedal..... make me shiver.

E-

In the 1990s GM introduced 'Magnasteer' which was basically a computerized steering assist, a magnetic booster if you prefer. It was not by any means steer by wire. It seems this is now Magnasteer II, but again it's not a steer by wire. There's still a column, steering shaft, rack etc which makes it very unlike the drive by wire throttle systems or that brake by wire system (which gives me cold chills just thinking about it). If Magnasteer quits, you lose the variable assist. Yeah, I can see how that might be interpreted by a non car person as loss of steering, similar to losing a belt on a hydraulic system.

But unlike a drive by wire throttle failure there is always the driver's input, it just takes more effort.

EDIT: I saw a 3208 V8 Cat diesel go into runaway once. The techs were trying to jam handfuls of shop rags in the intake and it finally worked.

I knew it wasn't really steer by wire, but electric assist. Still, that's what the shop was telling the family.

To make it more exciting, because the wiring problem with the assist was intermittent, it would twitch on an off. So one moment you'd be fighting against unassisted steering, then all of a sudden it would be back to the normal soccer mom level. Not a recipe for smooth driving, and I'm surprised it only ended up in the ditch once.

For years people complained about GMs numb power steering. Here they try to give people a little adventure and they go running back to the dealer. There is a reason Pontiac was known as the excitement division.

Steer by wire has been around for decades. I've used it way back in the early 80's. It can work just fine. It's simply not on any production automobiles yet. I used it on ships, others have used it on aircraft. It can work just fine.

I have no inherent fear of steer by wire or throttle by wire. When set up in isolation, it's simple coding, with position A on the sender equaling position A on the receiver. Very simple, very consistent, very stable and reliable. It's when this is combined with other things that you start running into problems. Co-joining it with stability control for example, that's a recipe for disaster. Even just adding cruise control to a throttle by wire creates complexity in the coding and increased risk of errors and failures.

Steering must have a mechanical connection from the wheel to the front tires, period. It is law. Check with your local DOT.

alfadriver wrote:

Keith wrote: You're right, I should have said electronic accelerator pedals. But the point is that there's no cable, just a computer in charge. I expect this has been the case for a while, but nobody's noticed. I wonder if the brakes on my father-in-law's 3500 Cummins would stop that thing if it decided to go for a little unintended acceleration joyride. I'm gonna say no, because nothing can hold that beast back when it decides it wants to move.

tractor diesels (what most of you call real trucks) as well as busses have had non cable "throttle" for a while. I know a lot of info was taken from their development as well as airplane electronics. Out of control diesels are a different animal entirely. They can be nasty as all get up. some will keep running even after you shut off the fuel- they consume thier own oil. But for car and light truck diesels, I don't think that's a huge problem.... Still, I'm with you in not wanting to encounter a 3500 Cummins with a stuck pedal..... make me shiver. E-

I have investigated run away diesel cases.... They are no fun. Usually something goofy happens and the turbo starts shooting oil into the intake. A warm engine will run on motor oil in this fashion. I remember one particular bus manufacturer that was rather cross with me when I showed them how they were failing our engines, due to their negligence. That went over like a fart in church.

alfadriver wrote: Out of control diesels are a different animal entirely. They can be nasty as all get up. some will keep running even after you shut off the fuel- they consume thier own oil. But for car and light truck diesels, I don't think that's a huge problem.... Still, I'm with you in not wanting to encounter a 3500 Cummins with a stuck pedal..... make me shiver.

If you ever get a Diesel near a natural gas line with a large enough leak, the engine can ingest enough fuel to keep running, even if you turn off the "ignition" switch. It'll just keep revving till it blows.