mad_machine wrote: basic Gun 101.. I would hope that the police are beyond 101 and have attended at least a 400 level course.
Just remember what can happen to the LEO's in the event a person reaches back into the vehicle......I never want to witness that particular dash cam video again and I will not share it out of respect. Cliff notes of it, similar beginning to the Tulsa event, yelling, heading towards their vehicle, but the end result was loss of the Georgia officer's life.
In reply to Bobzilla:
Don't pull your thing out unless you came to bang
WOW Really Paul? wrote:mad_machine wrote: my biggest complaint with the police.. they too often go for the kill shot. As shown with the NYC bomber earlier this week, they are perfectly capable of wounding a suspect so they can bring them in.That region's LEO's are notoriously bad shots...
In part because the NYPD mandates a 12-pound trigger pull. Making the trigger that heavy should theoretically reduce negligent discharges, but it also makes trying to hit your target much harder when you actually mean to pull the trigger.
For reference, a 12-pound pull is 2-3 times what most civilian pistols use.
RevRico wrote:Bobzilla wrote: Lot of misinformation on both these cases floating around out there. The Charlotte incident appears to be a valid shoot. Man climbing out of a car with a gun in hand, not responding to police telling him to put it down. It was initially reported as an unarmed man with a book. Tulsa appears to have been a repeat offender high on most likely PCP not responding to officers after he parked his car in the middle of the street. This one is hazy as but his hands were not up at the time of the shooting/tazing. They were up previous to that until he got to the driver's door. To me looks like a scared and jumpy officer frightened by man twice her size that appeared high. Waiting on toxicology reports to be released but I believe there was PCP found in the vehicle. This one was reported as "unarmed pastor with his hands up shot by white cop". Frankly, the "reporting" is atrocious and IMO the news outlets that have misreported should be fined for inciting a riot and forced to pay the damages.That is kind of the whole point of the news anymore. Since the laws keeping things fair and balanced, aka closer to truthful, got demolished even before I was born, the news networks job is to spread disinformation and fear. I quit all American news sources except democracy now about 5 years ago because I tend to get more facts from other countries than any of the talking heads or private news sources here. What surprised me the most is the sheer volume of stuff, political, military, otherwise, that is straight up ignored and never mentioned on American news sources. or lately, with a big thanks to the internet archive, finding stories to be downright false and changed after the fact, or completely removed like they never even happened.
Bingo on Democracy Now and foreign news sources.
In reply to Will:
For better reference 12lbs is about right for the double action revolvers they used to be issued.
Cops in general (much like street thugs) really suck at hitting things with bullets.
Most humans do when someone is shooting back at them. Adrenaline and nerves will mess with anyone, even an ace shooter. Another reason that you aim for center of mass.
captdownshift wrote: In reply to Bobzilla: Don't pull your thing out unless you came to bang
I like to think that if there were more Outkast in the world, there would be fewer events like this
Bobzilla wrote: "Don't start nuthin', won't BE nuthin'" are words I like to live by.
Which works fine when you're white men like you and I. Try living by that when black or brown or Muslim and it might not work quite as well.
There's a reason why many police departments have had to operate under consent decrees and justice department supervision. And I promise it isn't political correctness.
Dr. Hess wrote: There was another shooting in Charlotte. That's why they are rioting. Details are fuzzy, PoPo won't release the video.
I expect that any public response will be mediated in Tulsa by pressing charges against the officer in question instead of shrugging shoulders in Charlotte.
All I know my ass would have been strung from the mast on the ship when I was an LEO in the COost Guard had I chosen to discharge when 99% of these police officers have. We have a thing called a "use of force" chart and you are constantly trained to deescalate it down as a suspect ramps up and firing the lethal firearm is the absolute LAST berking choice, and only if you are in imminent mortal danger. Somebody acting funny, reaching for something, not complying with verbal commands, or even having a firearm (or hell, all of the above!) is NOT imminent mortal danger! We were trained (CONSTANTLY) to use other means like pepper spray, tasers, phycial force, rubber bullets, etc, etc, etc to keep the suspect talking and heading towards full compliance. WTF ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?!?
Yeah, Javelin. I think that American citizens deserve AT LEAST the same rules of engagement as enemy combatants in a war zone, such as, SAY berkeleyING AFGHANISTAN. From what I've read and the GroPo's I've talked to, our soldiers can shoot someone when they are actually shooting at our soldiers, otherwise, NOT. Afghani walking down the road with 20 kilos of smack and an AK over his shoulder? No shoot. Now, if he starts shooting at our soldiers, then they can shoot. Why can't our police use AT berkeleyING LEAST the same rules of engagement? Not "Hey, I told him not to move and he moved, so I shot him." Or, "It looked like he had a gun, so I shot him." Or, "He might have been reaching into his SUV, so I shot him."
In reply to Dr. Hess:
Wow that is a great point.
I agree with dr Hess. This is the third time this has happened in the history of the grm board.
I'm getting old.
Dr Hess for president. Oh wait that was too reasonable an approach to this topic. Move along.
In reply to Dr. Hess:
The problem with that is the cost. The US spends MILLIONS upon HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars every year training our soldiers to follow those rules of engagement, then spends even more MILLIONS on a small percentage that will be actually using those rules on even more training. That small percentage is then sent out to finally work with those skills for a few months to a year before they get to go home, take some time off from using the rules of engagement, and be retrained on how to use them again for many more months.
A police department has to train people on a much smaller budget to use a set of rules of engagement, and then those people have to follow those rules every day until they quit, retire, or die with only sporadic opportunities to retrain on them, since training means you aren't working. If you have hundreds of millions of dollars to give to your local police force every year, I bet they won't have problems with shooting people who don't need to be shot.
In reply to ThunderCougarFalconGoat:
That sounds like a pretty piss poor excuse, really. Especially with as many ex military turn into police.
The whole "take our surplus military weapons or we cut your funding" is a big part of it especially without training, intrinsic racism despite the fact more whites are killed by police just publicized less, but holy E36 M3 the blind support from a large chunk of the population who think cops and military personnel are gods instead of regular people doing their job are other parts of the problem as well.
Browse through the comments on any of these stories, and you understand why so many places have cut out comment sections on their sites. "If you're doing nothing wrong the police won't mess with you" is total bullE36 M3 and just another excuse. Many of you know of my experience with chp, and frankly I still think I'm lucky I got out alive.
Training is a big part, but these are basic things. It's been big news in Pittsburgh that they're starting deescalation training, finally, despite the fact that pretty much every single cop has non lethal options on them and has had for years. Why even issue tazers (that can kill) and pepper spray if you're only thing anyone to grab their gun instead?
These kinds of reports make good business. Private Weapon sales go up, private and police armour sales go up, budgets get raised because "dangerous areas need more protection". Like everything else, it's business first, people second.
RR, don't know what the CHP did to you, but the LAPD almost killed my brother a few times. If they beat him bad enough to hospitalize him, they didn't arrest him. If they didn't beat him bad enough to require hospitalization, they arrested him. He is not a minority. Well, maybe in certain parts of LA he technically was, but in general, not considered a minority. He is schizophrenic.
TCFG, sorry, I disagree. If they want to be PoPo, they can follow rules and not shoot people.
Dr. Hess wrote: If they want to be PoPo, they can follow rules and not shoot people.
That does seem like something we can agree on. Who are you and what have you done with Hess?
A long time ago I applied to become a certain states highway patrol officer. I was very shocked that 98 percent of my fellow applicants were just out of the military and the majority of them were from some type of elite unit, not just regular enlisted folks. Lots of rangers and a couple seals. It was also eye opening when they announced to us that the training camp was on par, if not tougher than seal training. I know one thing, you don't want to berkeley with that states super troopers cause they ain't playing.
In reply to Dr. Hess:
I agree that they should follow the rules. And for the most part, they are. But their rules, that they are following, don't say "Only shoot people that are shooting at you."
If you want regular line cops to follow that rule and be more like soldiers, you've got to spend the money to have a lot more cops on a force so they don't ride solo every where, so they can spend more time conducting training to ingrain that into them, and then only have them work for short time periods where people will probably be shooting at them. You know, like soldiers.
When you have ambiguous rules like "You can shoot someone if you feel your life is endangered", then you can't be surprised when regular people have different ideas of what that means. And then you have scumbags that use ambiguous rules to promote or reinforce their personal stereotypes.
And while I agree that trained police officers should be held to a higher level than a civilian, you can't expect them to wait until someone shoots at them from the distance that most police encounters take place. Soldiers generally don't get within 4-6 feet of a suspected bad guy unless they have a lot of firepower backing them up. Your single cop in a patrol car has to get that close to a potential shooter EVERY day they go to work.
Finally, I wasn't trying to make excuses for police who shoot innocents. I'm just trying to point out that its a lot harder to prevent than just tightening their rules of engagement.
In reply to RevRico:
You say it is a poor excuse, but then prove my point for me.
You say police department's shouldn't accept retired military equipment without having adequate training. Well, how do you think that training happens? The training fairy doesn't just show up and crap out a bunch of it on every officers desk. No, the experts have to be brought in to teach this stuff, but they like to eat too. So they need to be paid. Which comes out of the department's funding. And the officers who have to attend this training? They have to be paid as well, and its probably overtime because it'll be their days off, because you can't leave your posts to attend training. I bet Pittsburgh had to find a way to pay for that new deescalation training before they could start classes.
The federal government can withhold federal subsidies from a local police department for not accepting that ex-military hardware. But if the department had enough funding from their local population, they could tell the government to go berk themselves, train their force the way it needs to be trained, utilize better hiring procedures to get more than the bottom 10% of high schoolers, and equip enough officers to avoid solo cops on patrol. But taxes are bad, and any one who suggests giving more money to the government (even if it is local instead of federal) is obviously Satan. And it takes a lot of restraint on the people in power not to abuse the new budget. Which means citizens really need to step up and get involved with how their government is run. That part I agree with you on.
Will there still be issues with some racist cop abusing their position? Absolutely. That is a societal problem, not a policing problem. Hopefully with better training and a better stock of officers, the instances of abuse will be fewer and farther between as we as a society remove that racism.
You guys do realize in most states in this country it takes nearly 3x the amount of hours of training to become a licensed cosmetologist as it does to become a police officer, right?
If the funding nessesary to train personnel how to safely operate ex-military hardware cannot be met by the current budget, perhaps they should not accept ex-military hardware.
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