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clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke SuperDork
11/19/16 1:32 p.m.

In reply to DrBoost:

It is definitely complicated getting it all setup. Takes some extra time. I love all the inputs it has. I have 5 devices each with an HDMI output running to it and I can seamlessly switch between them easily.

the_machina
the_machina New Reader
11/21/16 7:56 a.m.

I've always liked that (for the most part) the folks at the wirecutter seem to do way more research on these things than I have time for. So with that in mind:

TV Recommendation

Receiver Recommendation

Speaker package Recommendation

Vracer111
Vracer111 Reader
11/21/16 11:22 p.m.

For ~$3k, this is what I would do:

Receiver: My system uses an older NAD receiver (T747) as a preprocessor outputting into separate 2-channel (NAD C275BEE) and 5-channel (NAD T955) amps. No room in a $3k system budget for preprocessor + amps though. Spearit Sound has NAD T758 receiver (7.1 with preouts) for $799 (normally ~$1200)...the T758 has modular construction and you can upgrade to 4K video module down the line, or for an additional $200 you can upgrade the T758 unit at Spearit Sound with the 4K module for a limited time deal right now. I really don't see the point of going 4K at this time - I have a 110" projection based system and it more than has enough visually quality with Blu-ray, have not desire to jump on the 4k bandwagon at this point. Receiver should last you 20+ years no problem, plus it has modular architecture...so you can upgrade it when new technologies come out.

Speakers: Forgo subwoofer, get a 5 channel setup with mains that go low enough to not worry about subs for now, you can invest in decent subs later (figure about $1k per sub, unless DIY). For mains, Klipsch RF-82 II for mains, for center Klipsch RC-62 II, and for surrounds Klipsch RP-240S. That speaker setup will run ~$1600.

TV: Lowest cost quality brand 60"-70" you can find...spend the majority of the money on the audio system and don't skimp on audio system components - you do it right you buy only once and they will last your lifetime. Displays are different, they have a much shorter life cycle. There's a Samsung 60" 1080P LED model for less than $600... Seriously, just get the lowest cost, non frills TV you can find in the size you are looking for... save funds up for a 4k front-projection system later when the prices drop or not even worry about 4K and get a nice 1080P projector. Like I said, I have a 1080P projection based system on a 110" screen I have no desire for a 4K "TV"...

And if a DIY'er you can build your own rack to hold the equipment and put it in the back of the room, not in the front with the display - gives a cleaner look plus no disturbing lights and noise in front:

DrBoost
DrBoost UltimaDork
11/22/16 6:29 a.m.

In reply to vracer111:
I agree with most of what you said, but I usually hesitate to recommend higher end stuff unless I know the listener will actually care/hear the difference. Most can't. But that's not a big deal.
I do disagree with skipping a sub. For music, a sub is nice, for cinema, a sub is critical. Let's say you found towers that will dip down into the 20 Hz region. Not only are they going to be terribly expensive, you will also be stuck with the subs placement. With a dedicated subwoofer, you can place it where you want, even build it into furniture.
But for a sub, it's easy to go DIY and get astounding results. I have a single 10" that can be duplicated for about $150 and is flat from 14 hz to 100 Hz. That $150 includes a dedicated monoblock amp.
Page 4 of my build thread shows the sub I built.
tapped horn

DrBoost
DrBoost UltimaDork
11/22/16 6:31 a.m.

To Z31: I feel I've done you a disservice. If you get a receiver that can drive a 4 ohm load (I can help you pick one) you owe it to yourself to sample a set of Magnepans. They are simply incredible. But you will need a sub.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/22/16 7:57 a.m.
DrBoost wrote: To Z31: I feel I've done you a disservice. If you get a receiver that can drive a 4 ohm load (I can help you pick one) you owe it to yourself to sample a set of Magnepans. They are simply incredible. But you will need a sub.

I think the higher end package you recommended on the last page was 4ohm, I'll go back and double-check.

I'll also back up the idea that having a sub is critical.

Vracer111 - Thanks for the suggestions, but since I'll be in a rent house and not sure if I'll be in the same one in a year or buy, a projection system is just not on the radar.

And I'm in interested in having 4k for the new PS4 Pro, The Grand Tour, etc. there will be more content available sooner rather than later.

DrBoost
DrBoost UltimaDork
11/22/16 10:55 a.m.

If you weren't so far from me, I'd tell you to come on over and audition some Magnepans.
But, if you want to build the sub I did, it's cheap, not terribly difficult, and wow does it shake the bones. I still have all the panels already cut for another one, another driver, and another monoblock amp laying around. I'm thinking about building a second one and putting it in the closet behind the theater. Basically building it into the rear wall with the port in the wall. If I do that, I might have to have people sign a waiver before entering haha.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/22/16 11:02 a.m.

That sounds awesome!

Yeah, I have absolutely ZERO "woodworking" tools or the desire to buy/use said tools.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/22/16 11:05 a.m.
codrus wrote: Receivers are like computers -- after a few years they're obsolete and the depreciation is brutal. If you can live without having the latest and greatest features, you can pick up a few-year-old used model for 30-40% of what they cost new.

My first receiver worth talking about was a good Marantz. It was great until HDMI showed up and replacing my old tube TV basically obsoleted it. It was at least 15 years old at that point, and now it's working hard in my music studio. Good sound is good sound, and if you're smart enough to keep the computer stuff out of the receiver it'll be good for years.

Vracer111
Vracer111 Reader
11/22/16 4:37 p.m.
DrBoost wrote: In reply to vracer111: I agree with most of what you said, but I usually hesitate to recommend higher end stuff unless I know the listener will actually care/hear the difference. Most can't. But that's not a big deal. I do disagree with skipping a sub. For music, a sub is nice, for cinema, a sub is critical. Let's say you found towers that will dip down into the 20 Hz region. Not only are they going to be terribly expensive, you will also be stuck with the subs placement. With a dedicated subwoofer, you can place it where you want, even build it into furniture. But for a sub, it's easy to go DIY and get astounding results. I have a single 10" that can be duplicated for about $150 and is flat from 14 hz to 100 Hz. That $150 includes a dedicated monoblock amp. Page 4 of my build thread shows the sub I built. tapped horn

I don't disagree that subs should be part of a completed system, but in starting out with a system to me it would be more important to not compromise and get the best full range speakers in budget you can first with a lower end range of 30-40Hz and upper end of 20kHz+; even if that means forgoing subs. If you have to compromise on your speakers, it should be with the quantity of speakers you can fit in the budget, not the performance of the speakers. The only issue with getting high quality speakers is that the sub needs to be equally capable in its performance or it won't blend well...

I'm a big proponent of getting subwoofers (two at a minimum) but not at the expense of the full range speaker quality. You can very much enjoy high quality full range speakers with a 33Hz-24kHz+ range without subwoofers while you wait to eventually get 2 really nice subs that are complimetary to them. I hear you on the disadvantages of not having subwoofers, but subpar mains would drive me crazy - they are the most important thing to get right. Alternatively, instead of a surround, you could just go for a 3.1 system - and initially give up surrounds for a decent sub. If not into gaming that is a good move, if into gaming initially giving up the sub for the surrounds would be better.

The 8" drivers in those Klipsch towers would give nice snappy punch in the low end, and they go down lower than the subs you would get with those less expensive all-in-one box speaker systems. The heavy hitting bass notes in music is mainly focused in the 50-60Hz range, so music is covered no problem. HT will be compromised some since the low end frequency cutoff for most audio tracks on Blu-ray is 20Hz, but still very much enjoyable on nice full range speakers. I'd say more so than lesser speakers that aren't as good for the midrange on up (giving up precision, clarity, and fullness in sound) paired with a lower end sub (that even though it can reach below 20Hz has too much distortion and is too slow/loose in its presentation). Yes, you are giving up 10-15Hz of low end extension without a proper subwoofer, but the frequency range you do have is presented exceptionally well compared to a lesser configuration with more extension but with a sloppier and less pleasent presentation throughout.

I was also going to recommend Magnepan's as well, but a subwoofer would absolutely be required with the ones that would fit within in a $3k budget for a 5.1 setup . Problem is there is hardly any budget at all left for the subwoofer in a $3k system... a lower end sub would hurt the audio quality more than help it. The crossover from Magnepan to lower end sub would be all too noticeable. I guess could reduce the cost from switching to a different receiver to shift more budget to a sub. Hard to give up the audio quality on a NAD receiver though. There are cheaper, non 4k capable and non modular NAD models though...

DrBoost
DrBoost UltimaDork
11/22/16 5:24 p.m.

In reply to Vracer: we have slightly different perspectives, but only slightly.
I totally agree to go with quality over speaker quantity. That's a really good point. A GOOD 2.1 system is 1000X better than a mediocre 5.1 system. Get the good 2.1 and add the other 3 later as the budget allows.
Klipsch are good, quick speakers. I'm not terribly fond of them, but I have two reasons, only one of them could actually be viewed as reasonable haha.
1 - They are too bright for me. The highs seem too harsh. But that's subjective.
2 - I used to work with a total DB that went on and on and on about Klipsch. He totally ruined the brand for me haha.
I like to recommend maggies, but honestly, they really do like power. They don't NEED gobs of power, but they do sound better the more power you throw at them. My Pioneer Elite puts 368 (iirc) WPC into 4 ohms and I've had it just about maxed out. The maggies just kept eating the power and singing louder and louder. They got more glorious the more I pushed them. Then my wife came downstairs and gave me the stink-eye.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/22/16 5:45 p.m.

About speaker quality - for home theater, the center channel is the most important one. Spend your money there, you can skimp on the rears and to some extent the front sides. I'm not going to recommend brands, it's been about 17 years since I bought mine

Vracer111
Vracer111 Reader
11/22/16 6:52 p.m.

And another point is buying refurbished from manufacturer or certified distributor helps to get really good gear for very discounted prices... My RTi-A5 mains and PRO 500 series subs were nearly 1/2 off normal retail price bought directly from Polk's E-Bay refurbished store...

Took me a while to piece together my system, had a 3.1 setup for a few years before going to 5.1, then 5.2, then finally 7.2 ; all over about a 5 year period. Right now though I'm really into personal audio... I love the sound of my Fostex TH-X00 PH headphones much more than my lousy HT setup in comparison: 6Hz-45kHz frequency range with sub-bass and bass to die for, smooth yet precise and detailed mids, and incredibly detailed, energetic, and quick highs... getting speakers that could produce sound like they do would cost an insane amount of money, which I don't currenty and never will have. Plus with headphones you dont have to worry about room interaction...and that's the main thing holding back my HT audio quality - room reflections and nodal points. Really need to look into making bass traps and acoustic diffusors. No matter the speakers, the room they are in is the final say in the sound quality of your system...

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/22/16 9:08 p.m.

Why are some on this forum so determined to ignore what someone says they are looking for?

I'm sorry VRacer, I've played in bands and helped mix bands live for over 10 years, I know what it takes to get loud and sound good I was mainly looking for stuff I hadn't thought of or considered like DrBoost's Marantz/KEF suggestion. There is not an 8" speaker in a tower in the GRM world or the budget or just physically able to remotely handle bands like Gojira, Mastodon, Slayer, Meshuggah, Deftones, etc.

My Polk 12" sub and 500w built-in melted itself down trying to keep up with the Polk towers that had 3 6.25" and 1" tweeter with that kind of music. Smaller subs can physically only move so much air. I like to listen to my metal LOUD.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound like a shiny happy person, but for some reason over the last year this forum has become really bad about "I KNOW I don't want X," so many responses turn into, 'Well if you just knew anything you would know you want X'"

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/22/16 9:09 p.m.

And I'm well aware of quality headphones I have a nice set of Grado's and a headphone for listening at work.

But when I'm at home I want to feel the kick drum in metal and hard rock knock me in the chest like it does at a concert.

Hopefully this helped give you a better idea of what I want.

DrBoost
DrBoost UltimaDork
11/22/16 9:26 p.m.

In reply to VRacer and Z31:
Ahhh, you guys brought up headphones. I've been slowly inching my way away from the precipice! I want, oh how I want to jump into the world of headphones and a beautiful tube headphone amp but I kinda like the wife I have now. I don't want her to trade me in for a more reasonable husband that doesn't throw buckets of money at headphones haha.
Let me ask you two, totally off topic. Do you use your headphones for HT? Are they able to mimic 5 discrete channels?
Wait, for that last question you have to tell me that they suck at that or I'll go buy some now.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/22/16 9:31 p.m.

Nope mine are solely for music at work.

Even though a big HT system isn't as accurate, it's way more engaging.

Vracer111
Vracer111 Reader
11/22/16 11:49 p.m.
z31maniac wrote: And I'm well aware of quality headphones I have a nice set of Grado's and a headphone for listening at work. But when I'm at home I want to feel the kick drum in metal and hard rock knock me in the chest like it does at a concert. Hopefully this helped give you a better idea of what I want.

The previous post and this one would have been very helpful information to post upfront. I was under the impression you were just wanting to upgrade from a polk system to something more capable for HT with better detail that also played 'loud' well. Not your background and that you were looking to actually replicate a full concert experience at home...yeah that cannot be done reasonably at all without a monster sub (or two)...

For $3k system absolutely forgo surround and just get a monster 2.1 setup if you want to truely accomplish your goal. Devote most of the budget on a monster sub and rest on full range fronts with as big and quick drivers as possible. You are looking for 'budget' monster subs like the HSU Research VTF-15H Mk2 or a Rythmik servo driven FV15HP. The HSU VTF-15H Mk2 and a set of Klipsch Reference RF-82 II (~$1600 total, less shipping) or the Rythmik FV15HP and a set of Magnepan MMG (~$1800 total, less shipping) would be very good pairings.

HSU Research

Rhythmik Audio

codrus
codrus SuperDork
11/23/16 12:27 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: About speaker quality - for home theater, the center channel is the most important one. Spend your money there, you can skimp on the rears and to some extent the front sides. I'm not going to recommend brands, it's been about 17 years since I bought mine

I certainly wouldn't skimp on the front sides, but I agree that a bad center is really irritating in home theater.

I have Vandersteen model 2s as my L/R pair, bought them long before I was into HT and unfortunately Vandersteen really doesn't make a good matching center. They have a cheap one (the VCC-1) which is lousy and drove me nuts. I basically got the point where I would just turn it off and use phantom center instead (works OK for one person sitting in the sweet spot, not so good for multiple viewers). After I got tired of that I wound up going with a Paradigm "Prestige" center (55C), which I'm very pleased by, but doesn't fit into the budget being discussed.

There's a pair of Vandersteen 2ce mains on ebay right now for $700 which is something I'd strongly consider if I was looking to try to build a new system.

Vracer111
Vracer111 Reader
11/23/16 12:50 a.m.
DrBoost wrote: Let me ask you two, totally off topic. Do you use your headphones for HT? Are they able to mimic 5 discrete channels? Wait, for that last question you have to tell me that they suck at that or I'll go buy some now.

I use my headphones mainly for gaming and listening to music. My NAD T747 has Dolby Headphone, and it works very well for gaming on XBox-One... better than 7.1 discrete PCM mode to me. With my modified Philips SHP9500 ($120 all in, including the mods!) they just have so much detail, soundstage, and precision that you can tell exactly what/where/how far something is going down in an FPS and plan accordingly, Destiny being my game of choice (which has an absolutely incredible audio experience). They are an EXTREMELY comfortable and lightweight headphone as well. And if I want to have a blast with just a tad less awareness, my modded Fostex TH-X00 PH headphones just wow...that lowend from blasts or music score in Destiny...me like!

My SHP9500's

My TH-X00 PH's

For Music, I use either my laptop or tablet with Audioquest Dragonfly Red USB DAC/amp and headphones playing Flac ripped from my CD's. The TH-X00 PH's are simply unbeatable to me for any bass centered music, and the SHP9500's excel at symphonic and midrange centric music. Only one other pair of headphone's I'm looking to get, and those are STAX SR-L300 Electrostats...ever since I heard a pair they are a must own for me.

I do prefer to watch movies with the full HT system, even if the headphones sound better - it just feels right listening to speakers with a movie. Even if my subs aren't the best, they still can make the room/house resonate. For gaming or music though, headphones all the way. No getting around it, if you have a big screen then a nice HT system just seems much better.

DrBoost
DrBoost UltimaDork
11/23/16 7:13 a.m.
codrus wrote: There's a pair of Vandersteen 2ce mains on ebay right now for $700 which is something I'd strongly consider if I was looking to try to build a new system.

If you post a link, you'll be my hero, and my wife will hate you.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/23/16 8:05 a.m.
Vracer111 wrote:
z31maniac wrote: And I'm well aware of quality headphones I have a nice set of Grado's and a headphone for listening at work. But when I'm at home I want to feel the kick drum in metal and hard rock knock me in the chest like it does at a concert. Hopefully this helped give you a better idea of what I want.
The previous post and this one would have been very helpful information to post upfront. I was under the impression you were just wanting to upgrade from a polk system to something more capable for HT with better detail that also played 'loud' well. Not your background and that you were looking to actually replicate a full concert experience at home...yeah that cannot be done reasonably at all without a monster sub (or two)... For $3k system absolutely forgo surround and just get a monster 2.1 setup if you want to truely accomplish your goal. Devote most of the budget on a monster sub and rest on full range fronts with as big and quick drivers as possible. You are looking for 'budget' monster subs like the HSU Research VTF-15H Mk2 or a Rythmik servo driven FV15HP. The HSU VTF-15H Mk2 and a set of Klipsch Reference RF-82 II (~$1600 total, less shipping) or the Rythmik FV15HP and a set of Magnepan MMG (~$1800 total, less shipping) would be very good pairings. HSU Research Rhythmik Audio

Thanks for the suggestions!

I looked at the Magnepan site, but it seems their center channel (or the one I looked at is a very odd 3ohm transducer. So if these types of speakers are power hungry that seems like a bad idea to mix 3 and 4 ohm speakers on the same reciever.........unless said receiver is 2 ohm capable and I don't know if any are.

I'd really like a monster 3.1 setup (using the center for HT of course) and then cheap out on surrounds for now.

DrBoost
DrBoost UltimaDork
11/23/16 8:47 a.m.

Z31, after reading your last few posts, I'm not sure you'd be happy with Magnepans. Maybe, but maybe not. I've had people tell me they are not as dynamic a speaker as most. While I don't agree with that statement, I think it comes after people spend 20 minutes listening to them. They are, for lack of better words, subdued. A lot of speakers are bright, almost shrill in my opinion.
OK, maybe this explanation will work.
When you shop for a TV you walk into the showroom and all the TVs are screaming HEY!! LOOK AT ME!! NOTICE HOW BLUE MY BLUE IS???!! HEY!! They are all set to a showroom setting, or similar. That way they stand out, especially in a brightly lit store. They look great. But if you left them like that at home, in a dim room they would get tiring to watch for very long. That's how a lot of speakers sound to me (unless you are into the high-end arena, they are usually pretty good).
Magnepans are meant to sound basically neutral. They are supposed to disappear while you listen to them. You hear the vocalist, you hear the drummers shoe hit the kick-drum pedal, you hear the drum stick slide across the drum skin and hit the rim.
That kind of detail is stunning in classical and jazz (I don't listen to much of either) but get lost in rock and metal (I listen to more of those).
I don't know if that makes any sense. But all that being said, I know I don't have quite the hit when listening to rock or metal, but I can hear the squeak of the leather pants

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/23/16 10:57 a.m.
codrus wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: About speaker quality - for home theater, the center channel is the most important one. Spend your money there, you can skimp on the rears and to some extent the front sides. I'm not going to recommend brands, it's been about 17 years since I bought mine
I certainly wouldn't skimp on the front sides, but I agree that a bad center is really irritating in home theater.

It's all about order of importance. Center, front sides and sub in that order for theater as far as I'm concerned. I'm still in the 5.1 era, so I'm not sure where all the others go

I've got an M&K center and sub with some classic Paradigms for front sides. I usually go for clarity. Not sure how my setup sounds with metal because then I'd be listening to metal

codrus
codrus SuperDork
11/23/16 12:17 p.m.
DrBoost wrote:
codrus wrote: There's a pair of Vandersteen 2ce mains on ebay right now for $700 which is something I'd strongly consider if I was looking to try to build a new system.
If you post a link, you'll be my hero, and my wife will hate you.

2ce: http://www.ebay.com/itm/122232131170

I have "2ce signatures", which are one rev up from the "2ce". Current rev is the "2ce signature II", which go for something like $2500 new.

Vandersteens are big and heavy and shipping is expensive. These have the original boxes, which is very important to being able to ship them safely. They also come with the factory stands, which were optional but really shouldn't have been (huge difference in the sound if they're sitting on the floor vs on the stands).

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