Union Concessions

Ok, the local news station just aired an interview with a man that was complaining about a letter he just got in the mail. The letter was to inform him he would no longer be paid $28 per hour, now it'll be just $15. He had some valid concerns like "I've been at the job for 10 years and I have a standard of living, like this house and my car and I'd like to put my kids through college. Now I can't". Ok, that does suck. Then he complained about how he's seen the union bend over backwards to help a drunk keep his job but do nothing for him. That's when I want to slap him around a bit. The union kept your job for you. GM couldn't afford to keep paying you $28/hour + bennies and overtime to put head bolts on an engine or bolt seats into a car. Do you realize your job is freaking easy both mentally and physically? You didn't go to college to get the skills necessary, there aren't 10's of thousands of dollars invested in a tool set that allows you to do your job. There's no inherent risk in your job. Basically there's NOTHING that makes your job so specialized that it deserves nearly 60 grand a year base pay. Your job pays $15/hour and that's rather generous so freaking deal with it!

[rant over]

Dr. Boost sir...I salute you!

While I wholeheartedly agree with Boostifer on this one I think this whole deal smells of bad news for the rest of us. The precedent will now be that any employer can cut your pay in half up to the minimum wage without doing anything other than notifying you. This will get real ugly real quick folks.

If you just lost $13/hr wouldn't you complain?

Don't blame the guy who's making good money for an easy job, and don't blame the union. Blame the one responsible, the company.

The guy had a good deal, and lost it. I know I would be happy to still be working, but not happy that I lost all that money because management didn't do their job. John's right, now you're ALL going to feel it, so keep that in mind when YOU lose some money.

Being in a union GM town I've been hearing this for 2 years. Everybody knew it was coming but when it did people screamed bloody murder. I don't know about your town but in mine employees were offered 140k to walk away from the company. Most refused because they thought the union would save them and refused to believe GM was in as bad as shape as it said it was.

Not that I have ever done work like that, but I would think repetitive work all day long must be worth more then 15.00 an hour. I would not think there is anything physically easy about that job. I cant sit in the same chair for 8 hours a day let alone torque the same head bolt, doing the same motion all day long.

yep - welcome to the free market kids...youre selling your effort for cash. if you dont like the deal, go find a better one. If they dont want your efforts, they dont have to buy 'em. I do completely agree that Detroit Mgt took a nap at the wheel, but that kind of unsustainable spending is whats got uncle sam by the short and curlys too.

It is the unions fault. Their strong arm tactics artifically raise the jobs pay rate.

I blame Columbus.

In reply to RossD:

+1 for RossD

My company just paid $257 for 10 minutes of fork truck work when the fork truck was already there and the driver had to just make a detour. Union job.

Thank you Unions for ruining manufacturing jobs in this country.

Mexico, China, India, Indonesia, and every other third world nation that now has our production in their country would also like to Thank you. I am sure their pleasantries aren't sarcastic either. For this countries sake, move there and run our manufacturing back.

I don't mind foreign made goods, I like most of them, but when the manufacturing is there because unions make it so difficult and costly to operate in this country there is a problem.

I like to find Jimmy Hoffa, just so I could shoot him and bury him again.

I'm glad I'm self-employed. Of course, some weeks I make 1500.00, some weeks, zero. You want dependable earnings, being your own boss doesn't work real well.

I find it funny how much blame unions get for "runining" american manufacturing, when, in fact, their spending helped define the US as a leading economic power.

We seem to forget that we had a self sustaining system here- where you get paid enough to make something that you have enough time to buy your neighbor's something as well as the guy in the other state's something.

We also forget that we work only 5 days a week, get days off (optionally), and CAN focus on something other than working. Oh, and safe working conditions. Oh- non child labor. Oh- and reasonable job protection (you can't be fired for no reason).

It may not be right to pay too much, but pay enough that each industry can feed off each other isnt' a bad thing.

BTW, before you blame Unions too much, you may want to check your history- see if you can find Toyota's 2007 and GM's 2007 annual reports. You may figure out that Labor isn't the #1 cost. It is A cost, and a significant one, but not the biggie that most think it is.

In the end, unions have their issues, no doubt. But without them, I think our lives would be a whole lot different, in a bad way. Or would you consider moving to China or Mexico to earn the poor living they do?

One more thing- no way I would want to do a union job for one day. Let alone for a carreer. For those of you who think they are lazy and take a lot of breaks- how many are reading this AT WORK? Stop taking a break and get back to work!!!! Lazy no good bums.

Eric

John Brown wrote: While I wholeheartedly agree with Boostifer on this one I think this whole deal smells of bad news for the rest of us. The precedent will now be that any employer can cut your pay in half up to the minimum wage without doing anything other than notifying you. This will get real ugly real quick folks.

Well the other option is that you lose your job and that sucks more.

Most people are fired with by doing nothing more than notifying you.

Eric, I couldnt agree more - back in the 20s and 30s when employees arms were being quickly removed by large machines because workers were being forced into 20 hour days with equipment with next to no safety measures and mgt was allowed to decide on a whim when and if you got paid - yes , Unions were a godsend and very much needed. But, once their job was done, they kept pushing for decades despite correcting the issues. And you are also right about paying what it takes to buy what youre producing - theres inherent logic there. No doubt about it.

I blame the race to the bottom thats being propagated by the big boxes for the jobs moving overseas bit - profit thru volume is a job killer - plain and simple. It wouldnt be a problem if the volume came from domestic produced inventory. But The big boxes literally demand mfrs to move their operations overseas to guarantee x number of produced widgets over y period of time for z dollars per - something that cannot be guaranteed in the states because our free market allows for too much variability. I know this because Ive read the reports and memos. That may not hold true for automobile parts production, but other durable goods like compressors and pumps etc have been strongarmed that way. Union mandated pay rates just exacerbated the cash flow problems generated by a bad trade economy.

I am not talking about a history lessons here. I am talking the last 20 years ~30 years.

Unions had their place where they were a virtue. Now they are just a parasitic, greedy, power hungry "organization" that uses the allure of higher paying jobs and higher quality of work standards to line their pockets and forward their self satisfying agenda.

If you think the modern union is there for you, good luck, and enjoy unemployment.

FlightService wrote: I am not talking about a history lessons here. I am talking the last 20 years ~30 years. Unions had their place where they were a virtue. Now they are just a parasitic, greedy, power hungry "organization" that uses the allure of higher paying jobs and higher quality of work standards to line their pockets and forward their self satisfying agenda.

Amen.

I don't have the numbers in front of me...yes I'm reading this at work...on my lunch break.... but I do recall reading the costs built into each GM/Ford/Chrysler car due to paying union negotiated contracts. It was several thousand dollars per car. Staggering numbers. Something that helps keep them from being able to build competitive cars at a competitive price. And by the way, notice I said it "helps" keep them, not the sole cause. There are other factors and other fingers to point in the Big Three near collapse, but this was a huge factor.

I don't know the answer to this question, but I wonder if the Honda/Toyota/Mercedes et al...plants here in the US are unionized?

I agree that you can't lay 100% of the blame for this situation on the unions but lets get real here. I'd say the unions and the management are 90% to blame. The other 10% is devided up into lots of areas I'm not informed enough to know anything about.
Like others have said, the unions are responsible for the good and bad we are in. If it weren't for them I don't think we'd have lost many (if any) manufacturing jobs here but who knows what we'd ba paid and what conditions we'd have to work under. But, when the issues of the days were resolved 60-70 years ago they didn't need to keep pushing for more and more 'till the back was broken. And let me tell you, the union factory jobs are easy. I worked in a UAW plant for a few years on the line and everything is broken up so you never have to do anything that approaches complex. Need to torque those water pump bolts? There is an air-powered tool for that (for repeatability and reliability I'm sure) that has an attachment on it that locks onto another part of the engine so it takes 2 fingers to do the job. 1 finger to hold the gun on the engine and another one to pull the trigger. Oh, and if that trigger finger get's a blister call your union steward in. At least you'll get pulled off the job and sent to medical for a band-aid (and maybe physical therapy), more than likely the job will be investigated for reallocation. Want a longer break? Find one of many reasons to shut the line down for a while. Yeah, the company is paying $60 per hour (bennies included) times what, 50-60 people for the time that line is down but who cares?

My point is that the guy is whining because he's lost nearly 1/2 his pay. I feel for him. I lost 2 jobs in 5 months without so much as even a letter. I'm working now (took nearly2 years!) but making, uh lets see, little more than 1/2 my previous pay for the same job. Yeah that sucks but that's what the market will bear right now. my other option is to be my own boss.....I'm working on it. Oh yeah back to my point on all this. The job you have is easy and takes no special skill. There are lots of engineers on this board. They all went to school for it (and took on the debts to pay for said school) and have lots of knowledge so they can do that job. How about the mechanics here? They have enough wrapped up in tools that they could have picked up a nice 3 series BMW AND the school/experience it takes to be able to do that job. How about a doctor, lawyer, vet? Now on the flip side, how about a cop or a fireman? Not a ton of extra schooling or $40,000 in tools but they can get freaking killed every day. THEY should be getting 60K a year easy! Sorry bubba, your job just doesn't support $60K a year and then some.

BTW, I'm posting this at work, on lunch break.

Klayfish wrote: I don't know the answer to this question, but I wonder if the Honda/Toyota/Mercedes et al...plants here in the US are unionized?

I can tell you for a fact, the Toyota Camry/Solara/Avalon plant in Georgetown, KY is not unionized.

Brian

Can I have this guy's job that is complaining? I'll do that job for $15/hr. I bided my time working at a dealership as a service tech and didn't even make enough money to even think of affording the $40-60k vehicles I was working on. After the tool truck leaveth, I am poorth. And that was just to keep up with misc BS tools, not complete socket/wrench sets@$500 a set or more. The biggest expense I have is the tool box I bought USED from the Snap On guy for $4k. It still doesn't hold all of my tools, I had to keep my old Crapsman boxes around for everything that didn't fit.

Brian

I work part-time in a retail job (big box) where an anti-union video is part of orientation.

Meanwhile, the way employees are treated, it screams for a union.

"Just leave" isn't always the answer, folks--especially in this economy. When your job description constantly changes, full-time hours get reduced to below the legal definition of "full time", duties constantly get added and people take up more and more slack by doing the jobs of multiple people.

Sometimes you just want to do your job (the one you were hired to do, the one that is your job description) without being made completely miserable by management. Crazy concept.

<--planning escape soon

I have seen the best of what the unions can do.. and the worst. Here in Atlantic City, most of the stage hands are unionised (I am in IATSE Local 77) as are most of the facilities guys in the places we work.

We make the same money (approximatly 36/hr) and the same benefits.. but we work harder. The Facilities guys (operating engineers local 68) are always the first to scream that their toes are being stepped on and are the first to try to steal work from us (usually my lying) but are also the first to take breaks and not actually do the work they are being paid to do.

For example. Last week I spent a full day replacing the halogen and HID lights in one of the event centres I work at. This job is a facilities job.. but because they refuse to mount a lift, or they only come in to do the job when the floor is covered in chairs/booths/ or other junk.. the job NEVER gets done.

My boss managed to wrangle that job from them due to that.. and guess what, it was a cake job. After all, how hard is it to screw in light bulbs? Unfortunately I did have to replace several hundred.

Also, the facilities guys are not claiming that somebody is out to get them. One of the management people found a joint in their breakroom and now everybody is under scrutiny...

I like the IA local.. we work our asses off for the money we make. It is hard, dangerous (my job is at least) and the hours suck big time.. but honestly, I enjoy it... I would not want to be a facilities guy. Sitting around on my ass all day makes me antsy

(posted at home on my day off)

gamby wrote: Sometimes you just want to do your job (the one you were hired to do, the one that is your job description) without being made completely miserable by management. Crazy concept.

Sometimes, it's wise to accept and embrace taking-on those additional duties. It's a good path towards advancement or (at least) padding your resume.

If you believe your job should only be based upon a "description", you're already in a hole you dug for yourself.

All jobs suck. That's why they call it "work" and not "play time." And, you don't get paid for the work, you get paid for putting up with the bull E36 M3.

Now, that said, I've seen the union thing from the inside. There's issues. When people were being killed over canned milk on the ships, that was a different time than what we have today with unions "negotiating" and companies rolling over for pay for not working. I think that one went away too, probably in the bankruptcies.

But the biggest reason our manufacturing industry (and jobs) went to India, China, Mexico, anywhere but the United States of America is because of Congress. As I've said before, my old roommate now goes around closing down US manufacturing plants and shipping the business overseas/Mexico/South America as a hired gun (consultant). I asked him what the main reason was. He said the regulations in the US. Gosh, if you pass a bunch of laws crippling business, business will leave, with the jobs. Who'd-a-thunk it? I know US regulations are what killed the US shipping industry. Not the union wages. Wages are a small part of running a supertanker, for example.

alfadriver wrote: For those of you who think they are lazy and take a lot of breaks- how many are reading this AT WORK? Stop taking a break and get back to work!!!! Lazy no good bums. Eric

Yes, a lot of people take a look at the Internet from work. I'm on my lunch hour right now. As far as taking breaks, as an engineer I haven't had a coffee break since...never, in 30+ years in the workplace.

Like I said, if you really belive that labor costs/unions are a major contributor to the bottom line, as in it's why the US isn't competetive, go examine the 2007 annual reports from GM and Toyota.

Then get back with me.

As for regulations, which ones do you want to see go away, and not protect you and the environment? Are you willing to go work in Mexico or China where many of these protections are no longer there? I'm serious.

And if you haven't noticed- we still have a manufacturing industry in the US. Steel, cars, chairs, washing machines, etc. Amazing that we can still make stuff. Even more amazing that companies come HERE to make things.

Hess brings up the shipping industry- which part? Just the ships? We don't off load our stuff in Mexico and bring it across the border- no- it's off loaded into the US. And we do make gasoline here in the US. You make it sound like there zero activity- which is untrue. Yes, some of the rules force industries like the cruise ships to not be US registered- but if you understood what rules they are getting around- would you want your kids working with them?

IMHO, moving stuff overseas and blaming 1) unions and 2) the government is a dead giveaway to poor management. There are plenty of stuff built here that are paid decent wages and are competetive in their market and pass all rules to really put much into those excuses.