In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
You are completely right. Winterizing a house is not hard. Getting Aunt Gertrude to winterize it after her Thanksgiving day visit is a bit harder.
I have a place like this. Sharing it with folks and expecting the winterization, etc to be carried out can be frustrating.
The easy button is to leave the heat on 50*.
Not sure on agchoice but in Ohio ag credit will not finance a non liveable residence. We almost lost this house because of the wiring being well below code and a few diffrent generations of wiring.
klb67 said:In reply to Scottah :
The real issue is can a/this 1905 house be old and functional, or is it really a money pit I can't see.
I think the big thing here is everyone's definition of "functional". If the goal is a new McMansion with straight walls and radiant floor heat etc, then it's a no-go. If the goal is a place that doesn't leak or degrade and gives you a place to sleep when you're running around in the woods having a good time, it's a lot more realistic. I think you've got the right expectation because you have some history with this kind of house and use. And heck, if it doesn't work out you can raze it and put a trailer on the land before building a cabin eventually.
That's a big house for 1905.
In reply to klb67 :
One other issue, homesteading. Out west it’s pretty common that your primary residence is homesteaded and you get a massive tax break.
However non homesteaded property can be taxed at a significantly higher rate. It’s not as simple as where do you spend most of your time. Or which has the higher property taxes. I have heard a variety of approaches some of which sound plain shady or questionable. I don’t think They are lying, I just think the rules differ, so it’s one thing you will want to get a legal opinion on.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
If we pursue this, I want to try to get more history on the property. I suspect the front portion of the house with 4 br upstairs is the original house circa 1905, and the back wing is newer. But after seeing it, I don't think the back wing is substantially newer - it predates the 1950s based on the brother in law's comments, and I think I saw some knob and tube remnants in that section as well. It has some newer "renovations" that closed in a porch or two, and the kitchen is probably 1950s or 1960s.
You do make a good point - if the house starts to become a money pit, there's still probably enough value there it make it worth it without the house and starting over. But it's worth trying to save the house in the short term. Several folks have told me just buy land and put an RV on it, but that doesn't meet many of my goals. The fact that this place has all utilities to it (even cable and satellite if we wanted to hook them back up) and is big enough for family gatherings makes it worth considering.
jharry3 said:I would not trust the old wiring especially if its that old fabric insulation stuff. I am thinking an update on that including a new box with real breakers. Besides rotting insulation the rodents have a tendency to gnaw on wire so it probable has some open spots waiting to cause you trouble. If you start using the place you probably will quickly overload the old electrical system.
I would put in Carbon monoxide monitors to verify your heating system is not going to kill you.
Septic system could get expensive; probably needs new drain piping, tank and field updated.
Other than upgrading/inspecting the two things that can kill you, the electrical system and the gas heat, you have a place with a good roof that needs a lot of TLC.
When I was in high school, my mom and dad bought a cottage that was about that vintage - think I remember about 1902. Some lath and plaster, but also some 24"-30" heart redwood-sided walls with newspaper, muslin fabric, plaster, and paint over the wood. The structure was in surprisingly good condition, considering. Foundation was redwood posts sitting on native rocks. All of that had to be replaced.
The thing that it had that was somewhat terrifying was knob and tube wiring (Knob & Tube) . Where the wiring passed though a beam, there was a porcelain tube. Push button light switches. Wire had fabric 'insulation' with no ground. Fuse panel had screw-in glass fuses. Thankfully, none had pennies under them ;=)
We removed all of the old wiring and installed a new breaker panel, wiring, switches, and outlets first thing.
If it has that system - which any part that dates from 1905 and is unrestored would - I would replace before I even thought about staying in the house.
Edit - Regarding plumbing, I lived in a 1930's house that had 1/2" galvanized pipe. Every bit of it had rusted to the point the opening was down to the size of a pencil. Couldn't replace anything since the pipe was so compromised that it would break before a fitting came loose.
IIn reply to klb67 : three ways to go( assuming you want to do this)
owner brings it into compliance.
You bring it into compliance
or
I think the approach I would take is make a fair offer for it with regard the purchase price but have it conditional on a lease with option to buy. That price should reflect the cost of bringing it up to compliance. However it can’t be so low they will reject your offer.
Lease it for X amount of time, ( whatever you feel it would take to bring it into compliance, plus the Xfactor for unknowns). Have 100% of the lease apply to purchase minus X% for interest ( use market rates)
In effect it becomes owner financing during the compliance stage. While few owners like to do owner provided financing this offers them a reward. If you don’t buy it you lose the cost of compliance you spent.
There would be some tax benefits to the sellers too
klb67 said: The real issue is can a/this 1905 house be old and functional, or is it really a money pit I can't see.
It sounds like a money pit. If it were going to be a primary residence, where you would be living most of the time to quickly take care of any issues that may come up I might feel differently. But this sounds like a place you'll visit maybe a dozen times a year? And when you visit, you'll want to be playing in the woods, not fixing a leaky toilet, or a window that broke during the last storm and let all of mother nature into your house or whatever else that comes up with a 100 year old building that nobody lives in 90% of the time. It will become less of an escape, and more of a hassle to maintain. Especially if you don't particularly enjoy maintaining your current place.
I have a 154 acre farm in northern WV. It has a mid-1800s log house on it that has some additions over the years. My great-grandfather bought it in 1911. It's changed hands a few times, but has stayed in the family since. We use it for hunting and recreation. If it wasn't for the familial attachment and free gas, I'm not sure we would invest as much time, money, and effort in the place. A second home, especially one that needs or could use updates, can be a lot of work. It will absorb as much money as you will allow. I'd suggest establishing a monthly budget for the house and prioritizing your list of updates. If you can accommodate the house financially, go for it. Unless you overpay, you should be able to at least break even if you have to sell it later.
By those metrics, all vacation homes/cabins are money pits. Which isn't completely wrong on some level, but they have a lot of value to a family. Being 90 minutes away means the likelihood of more visits.
Back in the 80's, my grandfather found a chunk of land for sale in Muskoka - half an island. It had three old cottages on it. He arranged for the extended family to buy it. Over the years, we subdivided the land and each of my mom's 7 siblings took a piece or two. They started building cottages, or maintaining the ones already there. We now have something like 9 cottages plus a handful of bunkhouses and the place is hopping all summer long. The August long weekend is an unofficial family reunion - we had over 50 people for a pig roast. Grandpa has been gone for 25 years but his legacy is a strong, cohesive family that is due, in large part, to that island.
Our cottage is 5 hours away from my parents' place, and it's closed up over the winter so we have to deal with winterization. There has been one break-in since it was built and the kids were caught basically immediately. A big storm took down some trees that damaged some roofs a year or two ago but a local who watches out for trouble prevented any follow-on damage. The bulk of the buildings are now 25 years old or so and thus they're starting to show some wear. But that doesn't take away from what that spot is or what it means to the family.
Yeah, the value of land in Muskoka has increased a LOT since that time and we've accidentally built up a fairly valuable chunk of real estate. But that's only a factor if someone sells, which hasn't happened yet. The cottages are going to start working their way down to the next generation over the next decade, and the (brutal) taxes will be the only indication of the actual potential monetary value.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Holy crap! You've got a family place on Muskoka? So do I. Do you know the Blackadar place?
I wouldn't be scared of it if you can make the financials work based on land value. As was mentioned, if you like the property you can always put another house on it. Definitely have the septic system thoroughly checked and then go from there. Seems like a workable property if you keep yourself in check and remember your goal.
If you have to have the septic system rebuilt, consider adding an easy connection for pumping out / connecting an RV holding tank dump. That way if you do decide to raze it you have an easy-button solution for camper connection. Or in case Crazy Cousin Eddy visits.
If I were looking at a bare property and thinking about large family gatherings, I might consider putting in what amounted to a private RV park. Lots of bare pads with utility connections and then a large, covered pavilion for gatherings. Fire pits, outside fireplace, etc. But then my family might be different than most...
If I were looking at a bare property and thinking about large family gatherings, I might consider putting in sound proof rooms and sniper turrets.
When I was a kid, my family bought a cabin in North Central PA for hunting and weekend getaways. It was in fact, a 1950's trailer with a porch added on, but we called it our cabin. At the time of purchase, the yard was filled with old junk, the outbuildings were filled with chicken poop, the well was iffy, and the interior looked like a crack den. But we drove up every weekend and took lots of trips to the dump and put in lots of elbow grease. It was in the family for 20 -30 years before the deer population dried up and we sold it. I have some of my best memories up there, but hey, don't let that sway you at all. :)
SVreX said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
Holy crap! You've got a family place on Muskoka? So do I. Do you know the Blackadar place?
In the Muskoka area, not on Lake Muskoka itself. Although my grandfather earned money as a student by playing banjo on the dock of Windermere House during the 20s, and my dad worked there as a student as well. Our island is Gordon Island on Lake Cecebe, up near Burk's Falls. Technically that's Almaguin but I hadn't even heard that name until a couple of years ago!
Next time I'm heading north, I might give you a heads up :)
klb67 said:In reply to Scottah :
Are you in the HVAC, plumbing, or painting trades? Install home security and surveillance systems? Have a free tractor, mower, and brush hog that you need rid off? Or just a big old bag of money you don't need anymore? Then sure. :)
Ummm. Yes?
Im sure one of nostalgia types will be ready to shame me and throw rocks, but what about tearing the thing down and building a simple cabin? I mean at 120 acres, the value is the land, not the house. Call local VFD and see if it’s legal for them to burn down as a training exercise?
For occasional use/seasonal the septic might be less of a problem.
My house was built in 1847. Over the years it has various updates. In city sewer system/ water helps. Why it has an enclosed stairway to the attic is puzzling. Attic not finished but could be.
Pull all the copper out and recycle it. If it has old growth wide floor boards or timbers, take them out and sell them to Norm Abram. Burn the rest and buy a big tent.
Old houses suck.
Im kind of confused by this post, it seems like you think old houses are insane and are unlivable. Dont get me wrong, some are, but that has to do with the condition of them, not the actual structure of them. I live in a 1902 house and its perfectly fine, cement and horsehair plaster and all.
It sounds perfectly usable for short term living with a new septic tank. No water damage, functioning heat, functioning electric, and no real problems besides the septic. Its could be just the septic lines to it as in the past you had clay pipe and the horrifically bad Orangeberg stuff (pretty much tar paper). In fact im almost certain its that since pumping the tank did nothing. It could be a fairly easy fix.
Old houses built right have their own character and can be spectacular houses
Two houses is a lot of work and money. I've done it with very bad results that cost me hundreds of thousands. One of mine was built in '74 and the other in late 1800's.
In reply to Scottah :
I like old homes so much that I basically patterned mine after old construction called Timberframing.
But No not every old house is worthy of being saved.
frenchyd said:But No not every old house is worthy of being saved.
Parts of them are, like Streetwiseguy said. The wood, especially. Old hardwood is worth money to the right people.
Keith Tanner said:By those metrics, all vacation homes/cabins are money pits. Which isn't completely wrong on some level, but they have a lot of value to a family. Being 90 minutes away means the likelihood of more visits.
Back in the 80's, my grandfather found a chunk of land for sale in Muskoka - half an island. It had three old cottages on it. He arranged for the extended family to buy it. Over the years, we subdivided the land and each of my mom's 7 siblings took a piece or two. They started building cottages, or maintaining the ones already there. We now have something like 9 cottages plus a handful of bunkhouses and the place is hopping all summer long. The August long weekend is an unofficial family reunion - we had over 50 people for a pig roast. Grandpa has been gone for 25 years but his legacy is a strong, cohesive family that is due, in large part, to that island.
Our cottage is 5 hours away from my parents' place, and it's closed up over the winter so we have to deal with winterization. There has been one break-in since it was built and the kids were caught basically immediately. A big storm took down some trees that damaged some roofs a year or two ago but a local who watches out for trouble prevented any follow-on damage. The bulk of the buildings are now 25 years old or so and thus they're starting to show some wear. But that doesn't take away from what that spot is or what it means to the family.
Yeah, the value of land in Muskoka has increased a LOT since that time and we've accidentally built up a fairly valuable chunk of real estate. But that's only a factor if someone sells, which hasn't happened yet. The cottages are going to start working their way down to the next generation over the next decade, and the (brutal) taxes will be the only indication of the actual potential monetary value.
All of this. My grandpa bought a place in the UP in the 1960's. He sold it in 2010. My grandparents passed in 2013 and 2015, but now of their 4 surviving kids, 3 have cottages and the 4th is building one. Two of those are ~500 yards apart, with grandpas old place in the middle, the other two are ~300 yards apart, and the sets of two are separated by 15 miles by road or boat. Guess where you can find between 4 and 55 cousins, siblings, aunts, uncles, and friends, at any given time? It is pretty nice to have. And a great legacy.
EDIT: My grandpa always said that his cottage was the best investment he ever made. He was not talking about money, but he was right--it was an investment in his family.
Brett_Murphy said:frenchyd said:But No not every old house is worthy of being saved.
Parts of them are, like Streetwiseguy said. The wood, especially. Old hardwood is worth money to the right people.
My house is mainly old growth hardwood. Some of the trees I used were growing before America declared independence from King George.
Yes some people are willing to pay a premium for wood like that but if you know where to go/ buy it’s still available.
Antihero said:Im kind of confused by this post, it seems like you think old houses are insane and are unlivable. Dont get me wrong, some are, but that has to do with the condition of them, not the actual structure of them. I live in a 1902 house and its perfectly fine, cement and horsehair plaster and all.
It sounds perfectly usable for short term living with a new septic tank. No water damage, functioning heat, functioning electric, and no real problems besides the septic. Its could be just the septic lines to it as in the past you had clay pipe and the horrifically bad Orangeberg stuff (pretty much tar paper). In fact im almost certain its that since pumping the tank did nothing. It could be a fairly easy fix.
Old houses built right have their own character and can be spectacular houses
You are right, if built right old houses may have character and value. Or they may not.
Age is no assurance of quality or value. Yes even in the good old days poor things were made.
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