Want to feel wealthy...or maybe not?

dculberson said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Give me a break. A bundle of cash and the right attitude will get out farther. Attitude doesn’t pay the bills. You also won’t get that bundle of cash without the right attitude. 

Is your suggestion to just spend everything you earn and if you have “aptitude” that everything will work out?? It sure seems to be, based on your comments in every thread like this. 

Keeping in mind, of course, by “cash” I mean “income producing investments” be they stocks, bonds, real estate, etc. cash is not good in actual cash. 

So you consider a 4 year reserve of cash and convertible assets inadequate?  It very nearly wasn’t in my case.  And I can site many similar examples.   People I was working with who basically lost everything they’d worked and saved for.  Fellow baby boomers renting, leasing, and hoping to survive on social security. 

Look at the percentage of people who owned stock prior to 2008 and the percentage today. 

Not just market forces but health issues and other circumstances such as divorce, death of a spouse, Successful business owners forced into bankruptcy.  

In my case I waited too long thinking the economy would recover and I’d resume my career.  Once I accepted my career wouldn’t recover in time I sought employment in many other industries. Same as approximately 8 million others.  At age 60+ I was easy to dismiss and the only jobs I could find were already jammed full of other overly desperate people Jobs which promised much but paid little.  

Once I was at the very absolute end of my reserves I became much more pragmatic and wound up driving a bus because they paid weekly. Now 5+ years later I’m beginning to pull out of the depths of hardship but I’m still using coats/ clothes/ shoes I bought 30+ years ago, 

Even though I can fly free anyplace in the world most vacations are stay-cations. Other than a too expensive wedding ( she paid most of) I live modestly saving every dime I can. 

 Far too many baby boomers are now in the same boat. Depleted reserves.  Retirement delayed or abandoned. 

In reply to frenchyd :

There’s no convincing you - I am not going to bother engaging. You trot out the same exact story time and time again and ignore the fact that you had a cash reserve and it did save you. Without it where would you have been?

i consider 4 years a good start. But no more than a good start. 

dculberson said:

In reply to frenchyd :

There’s no convincing you - I am not going to bother engaging. You trot out the same exact story time and time again and ignore the fact that you had a cash reserve and it did save you. Without it where would you have been?

i consider 4 years a good start. But no more than a good start. 

There is no point. His situation was an outlier, yet he trots it out as what should be expected every time. 

Outlier or not, having more resources relative to what you require will always allow you to deal with emergencies better.

dculberson said:

In reply to frenchyd :

There’s no convincing you - I am not going to bother engaging. You trot out the same exact story time and time again and ignore the fact that you had a cash reserve and it did save you. Without it where would you have been?

i consider 4 years a good start. But no more than a good start. 

I’m sorry I’ve only got one life story but perhaps another would explain better?  Doug my neighbor and childhood friend went in the Navy like I did. He wanted electronics so that when he got out he could open a TV repair shop. Like me he saved most of his Navy pay. When he got out he opened his shop. ( about 1974)  as you know TV’s quickly got cheaper than they could be repaired and so he lost his investment.  

He then went into Computers and after college training went to work for a company called Controlled Data.  Big company with an impressive campus of modern buildings.  It was a while before the company went bankrupt but when they did he was prepared.  He went and trained to become an air traffic controller.  ( pre strike )  by the time Patco Union was dissolved he’d actually paid off his training.  

 A few other jobs got him  to retirement age and a monthly social security check of less than $1500 a month. 

Gary a middle aged carpenter who with his sons generated over $500,000 a year income building houses.  ( based on their credit application for equipment I sold them ) They too lost everything when the 2008 housing crisis hit.  Today they are driving truck, making a decent living but with no reserves and no real assets. 

 Of my 1800+ Customers prior to 2008  only 3 were still in business when I tried to contact them in 2010 -11  

stuart in mn said:

I have no debts and enough assets to live comfortably, that's all that matters.

I am right there with you.

My only debt is my house and I'm in the lower middle class in Ohio according too the information available. We have to plan for large expenses but my kids aren't starving and they have never seen an eviction notice so its better then my childhood.

mtn said:

dculberson said:

In reply to frenchyd :

There’s no convincing you - I am not going to bother engaging. You trot out the same exact story time and time again and ignore the fact that you had a cash reserve and it did save you. Without it where would you have been?

i consider 4 years a good start. But no more than a good start. 

There is no point. His situation was an outlier, yet he trots it out as what should be expected every time. 

The point is there is no safe path.  Events,  health, divorce, legal issues, assure no one no matter how much they save a safe comfortable retirement. 

frenchyd said:

mtn said:

dculberson said:

In reply to frenchyd :

There’s no convincing you - I am not going to bother engaging. You trot out the same exact story time and time again and ignore the fact that you had a cash reserve and it did save you. Without it where would you have been?

i consider 4 years a good start. But no more than a good start. 

There is no point. His situation was an outlier, yet he trots it out as what should be expected every time. 

The point is there is no safe path.  Events,  health, divorce, legal issues, assure no one no matter how much they save a safe comfortable retirement. 

Things can always get worse.

Floating Doc said:

frenchyd said:

mtn said:

dculberson said:

In reply to frenchyd :

There’s no convincing you - I am not going to bother engaging. You trot out the same exact story time and time again and ignore the fact that you had a cash reserve and it did save you. Without it where would you have been?

i consider 4 years a good start. But no more than a good start. 

There is no point. His situation was an outlier, yet he trots it out as what should be expected every time. 

The point is there is no safe path.  Events,  health, divorce, legal issues, assure no one no matter how much they save a safe comfortable retirement. 

Things can always get worse.

Right, so my plan has been to live well below my means and save as much as I can. I could theoretically work a lot less hard than I do, but I figure I'm in the prime of my career so why not take advantage of the strong economy and make that safety buffer as big as possible so there will be less to worry about in my old age. Barring some massive unforeseen complication or the total, catastrophic breakdown of society, I can't imagine a scenario where saving more wouldn't be worthwhile.

In reply to Armitage : your peak earning years are typically from 40-55.   I absolutely agree that you should earn and save what you can, during those years.  Just disagree that that will get you safely across the line.  

Plus the line keeps moving!  The stopping working part is easy.  It’s just the unexpected is the only thing you should really expect.  

I hope you have a long boring retirement.   Especially the boring part.  Ancient Chinese curse, “ May you live in interesting times” 

In reply to Armitage :

On that note- I've seen FAR to many people die young with plenty of savings that ends up being useless to just suffer and save, save, save.  

We have a solid plan, where we are pretty darned close to retiring.  But just because of that plan does not mean we will not travel or buy stuff that makes our lives better when we can pay for those bills while we work.

To always plan for failure, no matter what, is pointless.  At some point, living miserably when you have a decent income defeats the purpose of going and getting an education for a really good paying job.

When I retire, I will work (or not) on my own terms.  

I do know one thing- we've been to events with the 0.1% (met an NFL owner Friday, even)...  Most we know are pretty happy, and they donate HUGE sums of money to things that we support, too.  But we just can't relate to them, so will not likely be hanging out with them on a regular basis.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Armitage :

On that note- I've seen FAR to many people die young with plenty of savings that ends up being useless to just suffer and save, save, save.  

We have a solid plan, where we are pretty darned close to retiring.  But just because of that plan does not mean we will not travel or buy stuff that makes our lives better when we can pay for those bills while we work.

To always plan for failure, no matter what, is pointless.  At some point, living miserably when you have a decent income defeats the purpose of going and getting an education for a really good paying job.

When I retire, I will work (or not) on my own terms.  

I do know one thing- we've been to events with the 0.1% (met an NFL owner Friday, even)...  Most we know are pretty happy, and they donate HUGE sums of money to things that we support, too.  But we just can't relate to them, so will not likely be hanging out with them on a regular basis.

Good point! Money saved or invested has a cost. That cost is usually described as opportunity costs.  You can save money your whole life and not do the things you want to do. 

Racing cars cost money. While it can be done on the cheap it still costs. It’s a matter of priorities.  Save for the unknown future or go racing?  

Pro racing now? You’re young you and the demands on your body are better handled as a young man then after retirement. 

Anti racing, but saving for retirement. You’ll  put a little more in your retirement account.  You’ll avoid the risk so many racers have of spending more and more on your hobby. 

Going fast is expensive going faster is much more expensive

alfadriver said:

In reply to Armitage :

On that note- I've seen FAR to many people die young with plenty of savings that ends up being useless to just suffer and save, save, save.  

I think phrasing it as 'suffering' is going a bit far.  

frenchyd said:

Good point! Money saved or invested has a cost. That cost is usually described as opportunity costs.  You can save money your whole life and not do the things you want to do. 

The flip side of that is the other opportunity cost.  Save 10k now and in 30 years its worth ~200k.  Spending extra to get that BMW now may deny you the opportunity to get the Porsche of your dreams in the future.  Or it may mean you have to work an extra 5 years.  Repeat a decision like that enough times and you are working until you are 70, instead of retiring at 40 and doing the things you want to do.

Its a choice.  The things I want to do mostly involve not working, so I'd rather put my money to work for me than spend it on frivolous bullE36 M3.

ProDarwin said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Armitage :

On that note- I've seen FAR to many people die young with plenty of savings that ends up being useless to just suffer and save, save, save.  

I think phrasing it as 'suffering' is going a bit far.  

Depends on your perspective.  

But that crash that frency keeps talking about includes dying.   Sometimes one does need to get something out of your hard work today.

ProDarwin said:

frenchyd said:

Good point! Money saved or invested has a cost. That cost is usually described as opportunity costs.  You can save money your whole life and not do the things you want to do. 

The flip side of that is the other opportunity cost.  Save 10k now and in 30 years its worth ~200k.  Spending extra to get that BMW now may deny you the opportunity to get the Porsche of your dreams in the future.  Or it may mean you have to work an extra 5 years.  Repeat a decision like that enough times and you are working until you are 70, instead of retiring at 40 and doing the things you want to do.

 

Its a choice.  The things I want to do mostly involve not working, so I'd rather put my money to work for me than spend it on frivolous bullE36 M3.

Then again, the BMW you do get may tell you that cars are not for you, so that P-car you've always saved for doesn't deliver what you always dreamed it should....  

In no way am I suggesting one should spend without caring about the future.  Just that not spending and just looking to the future- that has no real ending to it....

alfadriver said:

Just that not spending and just looking to the future- that has no real ending to it....

If you are just going to squirrel things away endlessly, I would agree. 

However, most people I know with this mentality have a target that is very real.  I'm guessing when dculberson, mtn, etc. hit a # around 25x their yearly spend, they no longer continue saving.  At that point they just get to stop and do whatever they want.  Or maybe they have a different target to support a career change, lifestyle change, etc.

I just recently started using Mint so I have a rough idea of my expenses over the last 6 months. I wish I had started tracking this stuff years earlier so I would have a better handle on the actual figures. I can't believe I haven't heard of this 25X rule before (just Googled it). Based on that, I guess I could retire now if I wanted to, but I'm still building that big safety buffer for if something bad happens, medical expenses continue to balloon out of control through the next 40-50 years, or I want to live less frugally in retirement.

So, since we're on the subject of early retirement... What would everyone here do with themselves if they could retire next year, assuming your total yearly expenditures had to remain fixed at today's rate?

Play with cars. Race Lemons. GRM challenge. Same stuff I do now just more of it because I can take the time!

ProDarwin said:

frenchyd said:

Good point! Money saved or invested has a cost. That cost is usually described as opportunity costs.  You can save money your whole life and not do the things you want to do. 

The flip side of that is the other opportunity cost.  Save 10k now and in 30 years its worth ~200k.  Spending extra to get that BMW now may deny you the opportunity to get the Porsche of your dreams in the future.  Or it may mean you have to work an extra 5 years.  Repeat a decision like that enough times and you are working until you are 70, instead of retiring at 40 and doing the things you want to do.

 

Its a choice.  The things I want to do mostly involve not working, so I'd rather put my money to work for me than spend it on frivolous bullE36 M3.

There we differ. Mind you I am not saying you are wrong, I’m saying I wish for something different. That’s one thing about retirement everyone’s wishes and desires are different. 

Some may want to stop a sole sucking job. But work at some non profit. Or lie on a beach? Sail the South Pacific? 

A few like me believe in the Amish plaque

Celebrate Work

Why not just have a job that you really enjoy. Always give and save and never go into debt ... it’s that simple  

Everything in balance: Remember the past; plan for tomorrow; live for today.

I've known too many who have died unexpectedly at a young age.

Edit: I just found out a friend passed away from cancer yesterday.  He was younger than I am.

frenchyd said:

mtn said:

dculberson said:

In reply to frenchyd :

There’s no convincing you - I am not going to bother engaging. You trot out the same exact story time and time again and ignore the fact that you had a cash reserve and it did save you. Without it where would you have been?

i consider 4 years a good start. But no more than a good start. 

There is no point. His situation was an outlier, yet he trots it out as what should be expected every time. 

The point is there is no safe path.  Events,  health, divorce, legal issues, assure no one no matter how much they save a safe comfortable retirement. 

No Frenchy. That’s NOT the point. 

The point  it is that we come here for community. Sometimes some of us in the community need advice, and others do the best we can to give good advice. 

Having some money put aside is ALWAYS good advice. It saved your ass. If it wasn’t for your savings, you wouldn’t have that fancy house you have, or be able to race cars. Perhaps you wouldn’t even have your wife. 

Your advice on financial matters is soul-crushing. It is devastatingly pessimistic, and wrong. 

You undermine community every time you open your mouth to talk about finance. 

Your life story and experience is valid. Please try to tell your story with a positive spin. 

In reply to SVreX :

Don't forget the boat.