The GFI outside is piggybacked on the same line as the GFI in the main floor's bathroom. Last year, I replaced both. Now either receptical has power. I check the wires in the bathroom. Dead. I touch the wires together to confirm they are dead. Dead.
So, into the basement to pop the breaker. Nope. All of them are hot. None have tripped. Dafuq? The house has conduit rather than romex, thank god.
So, what steps do I take to find the problem? A broken wire would ground out. Maybe a dead outlet that they piggybacked through? The wires leading into the breaker box are not the same colors as the wires in the 1900 box in the bathroom.
Is there a tracer tool out there that isn't fiendishly expensive than can help me find out were it goes? Without power to the outlet I don't know if that's possible.
Any sparkies out there have any ideas?
Are you sure the circuit doesn't go from panel to outside outlet and then to bath outlet. If so, the wires to GFI outside may still be hot, and that GFI is tripped.
If you know which branch circuit these two receptacles are on, you could shut off all the other circuits and see if anything else in the house has power. A $10 chicken stick or plug-in tester will work for that.
You said that none of the breakers have tripped and that they are all hot. Does that mean that you have confirmed that there is power on the screw terminal of each breaker?
The odds if this being a problem with the wires themselves are slender. More likely, an outlet has failed, or the wire connection to an outlet has gotten weak. Some builder-grade stuff is pretty terrible. I've had an outlet and a switch just fall apart, and had an outlet "fail" (on Thanksgiving, no less) because the loose push-in wire connections at an outlet upstream gave up after years of arcing.
Push-in wiring is always suspect. Moving the conductors over to the screw terminals might help. Try doing that with every outlet on that circuit, working or not, and see if you get a result.
The outdoor GFI only has a grey and a white terminating at the receptacle. no other wires using that section of cobduit.
Figuring out what is on this circut is key. The labeling on the box is lear to janky. Some are clearly labeled, such as Bedroom 1/2 or ejector pit. Others are in 35 year old cursive pencil.
Would you suggest shutting down the hard to read labels and see what that kills in attempt to isolate the circuit?
Appleseed said:
The outdoor GFI only has a grey and a white terminating at the receptacle. no other wires using that section of cobduit.
Figuring out what is on this circut is key. The labeling on the box is lear to janky. Some are clearly labeled, such as Bedroom 1/2 or ejector pit. Others are in 35 year old cursive pencil.
Would you suggest shutting down the hard to read labels and see what that kills in attempt to isolate the circuit?
Yes, absolutely. When you have time, I would also suggest drawing up a floor plan of your house with switch and receptacle symbols, and marking each with the number of the branch circuit serving it. You could then write or print up a neat panel schedule (circuit directory) to replace the pencil cursive comments at the panelboard. You could even go so far as to label each receptacle's wall plate with its circuit number if you felt like it.
Your problem is likely at the GFCI you replaced in the bathroom.
Have you pulled that one out to check the wiring in the box? Splices come apart and wires break without tripping breakers, especially on the neutral side. Without seeing what is going on in the junction box in the bathroom, including the wiring to the GFCI, there really isn't too much more I want to say.
Check the gfi in the other baths (if any). Usually they're tied together.
Steve_Jones said:
Check the gfi in the other baths (if any). Usually they're tied together.
This. I'd assume that a GFI outlet somewhere in the circuit is tripped.
1988RedT2 said:
Steve_Jones said:
Check the gfi in the other baths (if any). Usually they're tied together.
This. I'd assume that a GFI outlet somewhere in the circuit is tripped.
GFCIs should never be daisy chained off each other. Each one should be wired directly to the circuit. The load side of a GFCI is only to be used to give ground fault protection to an ordinary outlet within sight of the GFCI, which then should be labeled as such. This is why I wanted to have a photo of what was going on in the j-box in the bathroom, as grey and white aren't really aren't what you would use for a normal unswitched residential 120v phase.
In reply to Russian Warship, Go Berkeley Yourself :
I'm certainly not going to assert that that isn't the case, but I seem to recall tracking a dead outlet in my crawlspace to a tripped GFI in my entry foyer. I don't recall if there was more than one GFI in the circuit. I'd be surprised if all installed GFI's were "properly" installed.
GFCIs should not be daisy chained. Not saying they can't, just saying they shouldn't.
If you have two GFCIs on the same breaker, they should be wired in with pigtails at point of use not connected to each other.
Its also possible the breaker has failed. You can move the wire off one breaker onto another and see if your situation improves.
Russian Warship, Go Berkeley Yourself said:
1988RedT2 said:
Steve_Jones said:
Check the gfi in the other baths (if any). Usually they're tied together.
This. I'd assume that a GFI outlet somewhere in the circuit is tripped.
GFCIs should never be daisy chained off each other. Each one should be wired directly to the circuit. The load side of a GFCI is only to be used to give ground fault protection to an ordinary outlet within sight of the GFCI, which then should be labeled as such. This is why I wanted to have a photo of what was going on in the j-box in the bathroom, as grey and white aren't really aren't what you would use for a normal unswitched residential 120v phase.
Key word here is "should". I can personally attest that my current and former houses (both 30-50 years old) had daisy chained GFCI's, and even some other ancillary circuits also tied into them. I have to think 1980's electricians were working off different building codes in lots of instances.
You can get a voltage sensor that beeps and flashes when it gets to cyclical voltage. Just trace the circuit back until you get a 120v beep. I would venture a guess that you have a weak neutral connection somewhere. Over years of 60hz AC voltage going through, it actually vibrates neutrals loose. Just be sure you get one that shows you what the voltage is, because with a weak neutral, you might still have 70v giving you a false positive. Think of a loose neutral like a crusty battery connection. You know how the car will act normal until you try to start and it all goes dead? It might show voltage, but poops out under load.
I agree that you shouldn't go GFCI to another GFCI, unless you wire the second one off the hot (not protected side) of the first one. I wire mine by going to a GFCI outlet first, then wire regular duplexes after it from the protected side.
Voltage sensor for $10: Proster Non Contact Voltage Tester Pen - Adjustable Sensitivity AC Voltage Detector, Electric Volt Pen Tester Pen 12-1000V/48-1000V, Contactless Voltage Detector: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement
SV reX
MegaDork
12/16/24 10:35 p.m.
In reply to Appleseed :
"The wires leading into the breaker box are not the same colors as the wires in the 1900 box in the bathroom."
That's a clue. You've got a junction box somewhere that you haven't accounted for. May have a loose connection.
Another clue is that the outdoor GFCI has only 2 conductors in the box. That box doesn't feed anything. If you've got no power in 2 different boxes, the outdoor one is not the problem.
Is there a 2nd wire coming from the bathroom box? Is it tied to the load side of the GFCI?
SV reX
MegaDork
12/16/24 10:44 p.m.
In reply to Appleseed :
If you want to trace a wire with power on it, you can tie it to a hot extension cord.
To trace a dead circuit, sometimes i temporarily tie the white and black wires together then check the presumed opposite end of the wire with a continuity tester.
If it would help, I'd be happy to send one of these your way:
https://www.harryepstein.com/products/zircon-voltage-metal-electronic-sensor
I ordered one and got two. Supposedly it detects voltage as well as metal and produces a different tone for each. I haven't tried it yet but it may be worth a shot if you need to trace the physical path the conductors take between receptacles and back to the panelboard.
