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SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
6/24/15 4:03 p.m.
Duke wrote:
SVreX wrote:
DaveEstey wrote: A museum isn't a memorial
Sounds like splitting hairs. The museum I was at most certainly was a memorial, on a grand scale.
Nobody sane is talking about actually taking Confederate flags out of museums.

Duke:

You and I are agreeing on the state flags, but I think you completely missed what I was asking.

The current question in SC is that the Governor has asked that a Confederate flag be removed from a Confederate Memorial that is on the grounds of the State Capitol. SC does not use the Confederate flag in it's State flag, and is not flying it over their Capitol.

So, the Governor is requesting it be removed from a memorial, and DaveEstey is making a distinction between a memorial and a museum (and presumably suggesting the Confederate should not fly over public property).

My point was they are often one and the same. Museums are often both memorials and public property, so the distinction doesn't work.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/24/15 4:05 p.m.

In reply to Fletch1:

Politics are interesting. Both parties, ideologically, represent almost polar opposites. But in practice, both just want to stay in power.

I always say, support whoever's side-effects most align with what your beliefs are best for the country. Neither side is right. If you get 40% you are winning. 50% is a miracle. 60% you are probably the 1% that is buying all the politicians anyway.

You really wanna have fun? Start comparing rhetoric to voting records and bills put forward. See you at the funny farm.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/24/15 4:07 p.m.

In reply to SVreX:

the Memorial is on the state capital grounds and the flag does "fly over" the capital. Right in front of the steps

1198 Gervais St Columbia, SC 29201

FWIW there is a civil war museum about a mile away.

South Carolina Confederate Relic Room and Military Museum, 301 Gervais Street, Columbia, SC 29201

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
6/24/15 4:17 p.m.

In reply to Flight Service:

That's not the same thing as flying on the dome.

But let's pass on that for a minute.

I agree theoretically on the whole "shouldn't fly over public property" thing.

But the museum/ memorial question completely screws that up (and nobody has answered my question). Most of these are on public properties.

Should the Confederate flag be displayed at memorials and museums, even when they are public property?

yamaha
yamaha MegaDork
6/24/15 4:21 p.m.

In reply to Flight Service:

Wouldn't surprise me, as the younger generation was coming to age at that point, on both sides some officers were squaring off against their former West Point instructors/commanding officers.

I wonder if Sherman's "March to the Sea" would have netted him war criminal status in today's world.....

Duke
Duke MegaDork
6/24/15 4:23 p.m.
SVreX wrote:
Duke wrote:
SVreX wrote:
DaveEstey wrote: A museum isn't a memorial
Sounds like splitting hairs. The museum I was at most certainly was a memorial, on a grand scale.
Nobody sane is talking about actually taking Confederate flags out of museums.
Duke: You and I are agreeing on the state flags, but I think you completely missed what I was asking. The current question in SC is that the Governor has asked that a Confederate flag be removed from a Confederate Memorial that is on the grounds of the State Capitol. SC does not use the Confederate flag in it's State flag, and is not flying it over their Capitol. So, the Governor is requesting it be removed from a memorial, and DaveEstey is making a distinction between a memorial and a museum (and presumably suggesting the Confederate should not fly over public property). My point was they are often one and the same. Museums are often both memorials and public property, so the distinction doesn't work.

I am saying that I'm OK with the Confederate flag flying over a Civil War soldiers memorial, even if it is on state property, just as I would be OK with it in a museum or a reenactment. It is a part of history for good or bad and should be used as such to encourage education and contemplation.

If the SC memorial is on the campus of the state capital, separate from the Capitol building itself, I'm OK with it. If it is conveniently located at the top of the Capitol roof's dome or immediately next to the US/SC official flag display, I'm not OK with it.

As I said it boils down to "historic marker" vs. "current brand identity".

DaveEstey
DaveEstey PowerDork
6/24/15 4:28 p.m.
SVreX wrote:
Duke wrote:
SVreX wrote:
DaveEstey wrote: A museum isn't a memorial
Sounds like splitting hairs. The museum I was at most certainly was a memorial, on a grand scale.
Nobody sane is talking about actually taking Confederate flags out of museums.
Duke: You and I are agreeing on the state flags, but I think you completely missed what I was asking. The current question in SC is that the Governor has asked that a Confederate flag be removed from a Confederate Memorial that is on the grounds of the State Capitol. SC does not use the Confederate flag in it's State flag, and is not flying it over their Capitol. So, the Governor is requesting it be removed from a memorial, and DaveEstey is making a distinction between a memorial and a museum (and presumably suggesting the Confederate should not fly over public property). My point was they are often one and the same. Museums are often both memorials and public property, so the distinction doesn't work.

That flag doesn't have to fly over that memorial for it to still be a memorial. Taking it down doesn't reduce the meaning of the monument.

Hang it in a museum like the relic it is and where it can be a teaching moment so all can understand what the struggle was about. You don't fly it over the heads of citizens to whom it represents atrocities.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
6/24/15 4:31 p.m.

In reply to Duke:

My understanding is that the SC memorial is on the campus of the state capital, separate from the Capitol building itself.

The dome issue was settled in 2001.

But I do not live there. I have looked for current pictures, and found all the current events articles to be posting pictures from before 2001.

Additionally, the wording always says, "Capitol grounds", not "Capitol".

I'm pretty sure a lot of people are being duped into a frenzy by dishonest (or at least deceptive) reporting.

If anyone knows better, I'd love to know.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy UberDork
6/24/15 4:32 p.m.
yupididit wrote:
SVreX wrote:
yupididit wrote: The white man has used race or Christianity to conquer, kill, and destroy just about every culture they've encountered outside of Europe.
Unnecessary comment, especially since so many other colors, religions, and belief systems have done it too.
Well make sure you read the two sentences before the one you quoted and you wont take it out of the intended context. Please reread what's quoted below:
yupididit said: Why in the world would you want to be associated with such a group is beyond me. But hell, whites kinda have no choice being associated with such words. I mean that in the least offensive way possible.
I'm sorry if you didn't like what I said because you took it out of context or didn't understand what I meant by it.

If you replaced white with black in your posts, and a white person said it, the uproar would be staggering.

No context is required, the statement you made stands on its own with or without your other words. Hah, first thing that popped into my mind was how a black guy was racist, isn't that ironic?

Cone_Junkie
Cone_Junkie SuperDork
6/24/15 4:36 p.m.
unk577 wrote: Fly any flag you want as long as it's not flown above a The American Flag, I agree. Also no organization, association, religious group, company, school, your mom's uncle's cousin should be able to prevent you from flying our nation's flag. To those who walk on, burn, whatever our flag..... If is done in protest to our government then I have no opinion, it is your right. If it is done in protest to our country, it's still your right, but get the F!€# out! we don't want or need you here spreading hate. There are millions that would love to take your place and be appreciative in the process.

Since YOU get to decide how WE get to use our First Amendment rights, can we get your contact info? I assume you have some form to fill out that we can submit to you for approval first.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
6/24/15 4:38 p.m.

Here's the best description I can find:

Wiki said: The building's grounds are home to several monuments. On the north side, leading to the main entry,[11] is the Confederate Monument[12] which includes a flagpole flying a traditional version of the Confederate battle flag. The monument was established after a controversy during the state's 2000 presidential primary about the Confederate flag flying over the dome of the State House.
yamaha
yamaha MegaDork
6/24/15 4:52 p.m.

In reply to Cone_Junkie:

Since you want to go down that path, what are your opinions on legislated restrictions on the rest of the bill of rights(amendments 2-10). There are some glaring issues that both sides have screwed up pretty badly.

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
6/24/15 4:53 p.m.

Media - 1

Citizens of the USA - 0

They got ya, hook, line and sinker.

Their ratings are set for at least another week.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
6/24/15 5:05 p.m.
DaveEstey wrote: You don't fly it over the heads of citizens to whom it represents atrocities.

You mean like Japanese Anericans?

Oh wait...

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
6/24/15 5:18 p.m.

No, the Cheyenne, the Crow, the Navajo,...

Cone_Junkie
Cone_Junkie SuperDork
6/24/15 5:22 p.m.
yamaha wrote: In reply to Cone_Junkie: Since you want to go down that path, what are your opinions on legislated restrictions on the rest of the bill of rights(amendments 2-10). There are some glaring issues that both sides have screwed up pretty badly.

I don't want to go down that path, Mr Unk does. I'll continue to let the Supreme Court decide on how I can or can't exercise my rights. Not an internet yahoo spouting Fox news rhetoric.

I have a very strong opinion on the Second Amendment and how it's been bastardized over the last couple centuries. But that has nothing to do with this current argument, does it?

yamaha
yamaha MegaDork
6/24/15 5:26 p.m.

In reply to Cone_Junkie:

I'm more worried about the 10th amendment to be honest. The second will usually balance itself out with time.

yupididit
yupididit Reader
6/24/15 5:28 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote:
yupididit wrote:
SVreX wrote:
yupididit wrote: The white man has used race or Christianity to conquer, kill, and destroy just about every culture they've encountered outside of Europe.
Unnecessary comment, especially since so many other colors, religions, and belief systems have done it too.
Well make sure you read the two sentences before the one you quoted and you wont take it out of the intended context. Please reread what's quoted below:
yupididit said: Why in the world would you want to be associated with such a group is beyond me. But hell, whites kinda have no choice being associated with such words. I mean that in the least offensive way possible.
I'm sorry if you didn't like what I said because you took it out of context or didn't understand what I meant by it.
If you replaced white with black in your posts, and a white person said it, the uproar would be staggering. No context is required, the statement you made stands on its own with or without your other words. Hah, first thing that popped into my mind was how a black guy was racist, isn't that ironic?

I would not take it offensively at all if a white person said that about blacks. In my mind whites can say whatever they want to blacks and blacks can say whatever they want to whites. Why wouldn't that be okay?

Does that make what I said in that post unnecessary or racist? No, it doesn't. Especially if it applies to the point I was trying to make. WHICH IS SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO TAKE THINGS THAT WHITES DO OFFENSIVLY NO MATTER WHAT BECAUSE OF HISTORY AND HOW WHITES AFFECTED THEIR PEOPLE/CULTURE/COUNTRY/WAY OF LIFE. THEREFORE WAVING THE CONFEDERATE FLAG WILL CAUSE UNFAVORABLE ASSOCIATION.

I really don't get what yall aren't understanding about my post. It doesn't matter who says it and who it's about.

I swear, just like when some blacks look for the first opportunity to call a white people out on racism, whites look for the same opportunity to throw it back and call blacks out on being racist. Now how racist is that? It's childish and gets no one nowhere.

We're way too petty as a nation ffs. I'm done trying to explain that post. If don't get it then you don't get it. berkeley it.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
6/24/15 5:33 p.m.

Lifelong Southerner, born and raised within 20 miles of the SC State House. I grew up hearing all about the 'lost cause' and 'state's rights' stuff being what kicked off the Recent Unpleasantness. I bought into it- until I learned to think for myself. That included reading the Articles of Secession for not only SC but other Southern states. Whitewash it all you want, slavery was THE proximate cause of secession and all the terrible things which happened afterwards.

The Southern states formed their own central government, then designed their own flags including the Southern Cross. (That's its real name, not the Stars and Bars. That name refers to the flag of the Confederacy, analogous to the US flag.) We all know how that went; the South lost, Lincoln emancipated the Southern slaves, then the long hard work of rebuilding a nation began. Like any other conquered nation, the various Confederate flags came down and were replaced with US flags.

So later on, during the desegregation fights of the 1960's and 70's, several Southern states incorporated the Southern Cross in their flags or flew it from their capitols as a big middle finger to the US government. Now stop and consider that for a moment; the sons and daughters of slaves who were held under that banner see it come back again as a symbol of 'separate but equal' being the law of the land, i.e. the white people think you aren't as good as them and they won't let you forget that. I bet if it were you, you'd want to see something different happen too. But no; there it is, flying from the state capitol dome, a symbol of tacit state government approval for all that the banner stood for back in those days before emancipation.

Yeah, it needs to be removed from the State House grounds. Someone wants to put a flag sticker on their bumper, fly one from their private flagpole, display one as a memorial to one of their ancestors? Go right ahead. Just don't expect the government to display it.

Oh, and about the US flag flying over slavery, here's a few facts: there was a LOT of arguing about the future of slavery in the newly minted US back when the Constitution was written. In true political fashion, that can was kicked down the road; read up on the arguments over the various new states being free or slave. Hint: the Mason-Dixon Line is not just a fanciful term for the dividing line between North and South. Also see the Missouri Compromise line.

The Northern states had all agreed by 1804 to end slavery in a 'phased out' fashion; the Northern states not returning escaped slaves is prominently mentioned in the SC articles as a proximate reason for secession. So the US flag flew over a half slave/half free country. Emancipation of the slaves and rebuilding of the country happened under that flag as well. IMHO that gives it a free pass.

By the way, my dad was into genealogy in the last several years of his life and self published a book about our family. I had an ancestor who was somewhat famous around these parts for winning a battle in the area of Horrell Hill, SC, there are reprints of old newspaper stories telling of his daring and courage. I can honor his courage while still acknowledging that the cause he fought for was wrong. My dad and I used to argue about the flag fairly constantly; I still see and remember his good points while acknowledging that no he wasn't perfect.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
6/24/15 5:33 p.m.

In reply to yupididit:

It's not sounding any better.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
6/24/15 5:36 p.m.

I get it.

Say you are a historical re-enactor. You have a complete Waffen SS uniform that you use for re-enactments and education about WWII. Someone comes to your house and sees you in the uniform. The association will be immediate. You are not a neo-Nazi, but that's what they'll think without explanation, and possibly, even thereafter.

yupididit
yupididit Reader
6/24/15 5:37 p.m.

In reply to SVreX:

No worries, I ran out of berkeleys to give.

Cone_Junkie
Cone_Junkie SuperDork
6/24/15 5:44 p.m.
yamaha wrote: In reply to Cone_Junkie: I'm more worried about the 10th amendment to be honest. The second will usually balance itself out with time.

That falls in to the context of the debate actually. The Supreme Court recently decided that Texas has every right to stop allowing the confederate flag on their license plates.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
6/24/15 6:02 p.m.
Curmudgeon wrote: ...So later on, during the desegregation fights of the 1960's and 70's, several Southern states incorporated the Southern Cross in their flags or flew it from their capitols as a big middle finger to the US government...

That does not appear to be accurate. From what I can see the flags in question have been around for a long time. When the flags were created, that may be the case, but most seem to have been created soon after the Civil War (a middle finger to the federal government, but for a different reason).

What you may be referring to is that the anti-integration crowd during those times (more 50's I believe) started using the battle flag as a bit of a symbol of white power / pride, which kind of dragged the state flags into it (kind of like the swastika Hindi / Nazi thing).

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
6/24/15 6:39 p.m.
aircooled wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote: ...So later on, during the desegregation fights of the 1960's and 70's, several Southern states incorporated the Southern Cross in their flags or flew it from their capitols as a big middle finger to the US government...
That does not appear to be true. From what I can see the flags in question have been around for a long time. When the flags were created, that may be the case, but most seem to have been created soon after the Civil War (a middle finger the federal government, but for a different reason). What you may be referring to is that the anti-integration crowd during those times (more 50's I believe) started using the battle flag as a bit of a symbol of white power / pride, which kind of dragged the state flags into it (kind of like the swastika Hindi / Nazi thing).

Georgia flag 1956-2001:

Georgia flag 1920-1955:

I think these speak for themselves.

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