A close friend of mine bought a 2008 highlander the other day, and it seemed to be in good shape for its age with 15x,xxx miles and running well. After he bought it (from a private seller on FB marketplace) they discovered the car was smoking a bit from the exhaust on the drive home. While taking a closer look, they found an oil change sticker that listed the mileage as closer to 200,000 miles. They then ran a carfax that confirmed the odometer reading has dropped since August of this year. The seller signed the title, but they didn't notarize it (this is in NC, where titles must be notarized as far as I know.) My friend has not signed the title yet.
Ignoring any actions they should have taken differently in the past, what do you think they should do? They have the listing for the car saved and downloaded and it clearly lists the incorrect odo reading, and to my knowledge the car has not changed hands between the tampering and my friend buying it.
It's a sucky situation all around but I'm hoping I can offer them some sort of hope.
"Street Justice" is probably their best form of action. Keep the title un-altered and just as it was when you received it. That might then make it clean for the bad guy to re-sell the car to another victim. If the wold is lucky, the next time he will list it properly.
Could be a honest mistake. Carfax sucks for tracking milage. One honest typo and the carfax is ruined and looks like it has odometer fraud. Also what value is there to gain from dropping milage from close to 200k to 150k.....both are very high milage and past the point of adding/subtracting any real value.
EvanB
MegaDork
12/31/23 4:16 p.m.
Sounds like he has two problems. I would be more concerned about finding a notary that will notarize the title already signed by the seller so it can be registered. I agree it seems strange that someone would go through the effort of rolling back the odometer to slightly less high mileage. Looking at KBB the value difference between 150k and 200k is around $500.
In reply to RonnieFnD :
If it was just the carfax I'd agree, but this is a carfax and an oil change receipt, both showing higher mileage. I agree, it doesn't make sense, this guy used his facebook to sell and everything, so it's probably all very traceable, but maybe he's just not the smartest criminal in the pen.
Hmm, it seems that the name on the title is different from the name on of the guy who sold it to them. That's not great either.
Maybe the simplest thing to do would be to say, "hey, in NC the title has to be notarized and I can't do that without your presence" as a starting point. I just want them to be able to recover financially.
can you run the VIN thru google and see if it comes up ?
that might give you more info.
Good luck
wae
PowerDork
12/31/23 5:22 p.m.
Doesn't carfax use quick lubes as data sources? I could see how the quick lube screwed up the mileage and that got carfax all confused about the actual mileage. It does seem awfully odd to go through all the effort to roll back an odometer for such a relatively small amount.
Getting that title straightened out could be a much, much bigger problem. He's going to have to run down the person in whose name the title is issued and convince them to meet him at a notary. And that guy, as well as the person that your friend bought the car from both already have their money, so getting them to care about it is going to be tough.
AMiataCalledSteve said:
After he bought it (from a private seller on FB marketplace) they discovered the car was smoking a bit from the exhaust on the drive home. While taking a closer look, they found an oil change sticker that listed the mileage as closer to 200,000 miles. They then ran a carfax that confirmed the odometer reading has dropped since August of this year. The seller signed the title, but they didn't notarize it (this is in NC, where titles must be notarized as far as I know.) My friend has not signed the title yet.
This doesn't compute. If your friend doesn't have a signed, notarized title in hand (or a title in his name), he doesn't own the car. He already handed over the cash?
Does he have a bill of sale?
What does the odometer disclosure section of the title say (both the title issued to the seller, and the section the seller is supposed to fill out)? In NC, unless you go through some deliberate steps to claim mileage, over a certain year/mileage it becomes meaningless. I recall having to specifically ask the NC DMV to give me accurate mileage on some titles issued to me when I transferred from VA.
Any chance the mileage on the carfax is kilometers and it's a mistake? Does the math work if you try that? As far as Notary, only the buyer signature needs to be notarized, so that's a non issue. Has he reached out to the seller? That's the first step.
SV reX
MegaDork
12/31/23 8:26 p.m.
Who cares about the mileage? He doesn't have a fully executed title. That could be theft.
In reply to SV reX :
As soon as he signs it in front of a Notary he has a fully executed title. Buyer signature with no Notary is fine in NC.
Steve I think you have that backwards - the seller signature needs to be notarized.
Stampie
MegaDork
12/31/23 8:57 p.m.
AMiataCalledSteve said:
Hmm, it seems that the name on the title is different from the name on of the guy who sold it to them. That's not great either.
Maybe the simplest thing to do would be to say, "hey, in NC the title has to be notarized and I can't do that without your presence" as a starting point. I just want them to be able to recover financially.
I think your friend is berkeleyed.
SV reX
MegaDork
12/31/23 9:09 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
In reply to SV reX :
As soon as he signs it in front of a Notary he has a fully executed title. Buyer signature with no Notary is fine in NC.
I think you missed the part about the name on the title being different than the name of the guy who sold the car to him.
That's more than just signing the title.
JThw8
UltimaDork
12/31/23 9:20 p.m.
Yep, there's no sale there, seller not notarized on an NC title is a big fat no go. He may be screwed or he may at least be able to return the vehicle and get his money back. I wouldnt hold my breath on the latter.
ProDarwin said:
Steve I think you have that backwards - the seller signature needs to be notarized.
I did a quick search and from what I saw, it was just the buyer. I do know PA is just the buyer, MD is neither. I just sold a car this morning to a PA buyer and that is the way they needed it, I sign the MD title, they don't sign until they're in front of a Notary. NC could be both, or none depending on if it's a NC title or not.
Either way, the important question is, have they reached out to the seller yet?
SV reX said:
Steve_Jones said:
In reply to SV reX :
As soon as he signs it in front of a Notary he has a fully executed title. Buyer signature with no Notary is fine in NC.
I think you missed the part about the name on the title being different than the name of the guy who sold the car to him.
That's more than just signing the title.
I agree but the only person that knows it is him, if you don't mention it to the DMV (or whatever your State calls it) how would they know? I have bought many cars with an "open" title, signed by the person the seller bought it from. I can't be the only one.
If the seller's name doesn't match the title, then he's trying to jump title (sell it without registering it in his name and pay fees and taxes) which is not legal unless he is a dealer with a dealer's license.
So, if the value is less than the statutory maximum he can take it to small claims court and get his money back and the car will go back to the seller. Then it becomes the seller's problem again.
Or he can take it back to the guy and try and do the same thing direct, either way the seller is in the wrong and the mileage thing doesn't matter.
EvanB
MegaDork
1/1/24 1:36 a.m.
Steve_Jones said:
SV reX said:
Steve_Jones said:
In reply to SV reX :
As soon as he signs it in front of a Notary he has a fully executed title. Buyer signature with no Notary is fine in NC.
I think you missed the part about the name on the title being different than the name of the guy who sold the car to him.
That's more than just signing the title.
I agree but the only person that knows it is him, if you don't mention it to the DMV (or whatever your State calls it) how would they know? I have bought many cars with an "open" title, signed by the person the seller bought it from. I can't be the only one.
If it's a notary state the seller's signature needs to be notarized. It can be an open title where the seller signed it and had it notarized with no buyer info filled out but a seller signature with no notary is worthless.
Source: I am a notary in a state that requires vehicle titles to be notarized.
NOHOME
MegaDork
1/1/24 8:14 a.m.
What kind of $$$ are we talking?... a couple of grand? I can't imagine any 2008 high mileage vehicle being worth "hire a lawyer" kind of money. Can your friend afford to just move on.
The previous owner seems to have been using the car with no problems even when the tittle was not in his name, and at that age and mileage the car has no future value by the time your friend sold it, so why not just keep driving it until it dies?
If your friend keeps driving it and parks in no parking zones, where do the tickets go?
In reply to NOHOME :
Still need to title in your name to be able to register (tags) and insure in your name at least in VA.
We had the opposite misfortune of having my brother sell a car once and buyer never titled it. Ended up drunk driving a couple weeks later running expired tags for another car, side swiped a line of cars, ran, then ditched the car at a random apartment complex. Cops came to arrest my bro for everything when they found it a few days later after being towed by the apartment folks.. He was able to luckily produce a bill of sale and they determined he had returned his own tags. I think the towing company cane after him for towing fees too as he was last registered owner. I actually don't think other guy was ever convinced of anything either as he claimed it had been stolen along with his other tags.
So if your buddy wants to go in a crime spree he's got the tool for the job, unfortunately the guy he got it from is likely just a middle man.
This all sounds super sketchy, but maybe incompetence could explain it, too? Not sure, but figured I'd throw out my theory without more information.
Is it possible that this old car needed a new cluster, so they just swapped in another high-mileage cluster without recoding? And is it possible they really were just selling it for their friend and didn't realize how titles work?
In reply to Tom Suddard :
At least in RVA there is a group who is actively floating titles like this on both craigslist and Facebook (fake profiles). I actually went with a coworker to test drive one after being unable to convince them there were some obvious shenanigans. In that instance we met at a whole foods and two guys drove up, one in the car as advertised and the other in something else. We looked around at the car which seemed in decent shape. Only a rear tag on car (va requires 2). Test drove and there was nothing in the glove box or registration anywhere. Came back and asked about ckean title while running vin (vin checked out as not stolen or anything) but title was for Maryland and already signed. Here are actually two adds i found immediately for that same group lol. They've been at it at least 2 years.
https://richmond.craigslist.org/cto/d/henrico-2008-audi-a4-quattro-cabriolet/7702870532.html
https://richmond.craigslist.org/cto/d/henrico-2007-toyota-tundra-crew-cab/7703050879.html
