Whats with the shootings?

PHeller wrote: I'm not waiting for the police to do anything, I'm waiting for someone to step up and say "sir, you're a threat to those around you, we're going to take your guns". That's the community, IE the GOVERNMENT looking out for the public.

Not quite what you're discussing, but similar

We reported him because he made a lot of comments that we felt were not jokes but actual serious declarations of violence and of an unstable mindset. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/daniel-zimmerman/question-of-the-day-would-you-have-called-the-police/

In reply to rebelgtp:

Dayumn, way up there!

Unfortunately, seems like this story has little competition in the news today. I mean no disrespect to the victims or the responding officers (who by all accounts I've heard, performed well), but I really wish they would quit giving these stories three days of unending news coverage. I'm afraid they are making this the "go to" way of acting out for every idiot with a gun, an ax to grind and the desire to make some sort of statement.

rebelgtp wrote: ... In some countries where children at school have become targets they have armed and trained the teachers to allow them to protect students...

There's a saying that freedom isn't free - usually in reference to a soldier's death - fighting in a remote part of the world - "defending our freedom" in some tangential way. There's also a direct price for the population - in protecting everyone's rights up to the point they infringe on the next guy's - you don't get to second guess until they actually infringe on the other guy's rights. When it happens, there's a victim. Usually it's something like sleep from a barking dog. But sometimes it's a big infringement on the whole life, liberty and pursuit of happiness - like the life part. That's where the justice part of things is supposed to kick in.

So liberty has its risks of letting the crazies run loose until they cross some lines. In some cases the line crossing will cost lives. If the line-crossing is dramatic enough, the distressing part (in my view) is where people seem unwilling to pay the price - so we take our shoes off at airports, allow all kinds of surveillance on us and if our neighbor seems a little different - well, we'll turn him in so the cops can check him out. I'm pretty sure they're all well-qualified in psychological assessment and if he had a bad thoughts - we can lock him up for a while - maybe re-educate him and we'll all be safe and secure. If you really want liberty, you don't get to delegate it to your military or police or business.

Here's what I don't like:

Our country is getting more and more "do things for yourself", but we all know there are people in this country who can't do things for themselves. Kids who've got bad parents, parents who've been put out of jobs or are mentally unstable, people how have never gotten a proper education, or even folks who just start down a path of hateful thoughts that lead to violence.

America has been doing a good job of just ignoring our neighbors and ignoring the problems. We're so fixated on "what about me" that we can't stand to pay a dime more in taxes to help the kid down the street, we cant pay dime more in taxes for better schools, better police, etc.

So the begins the collapse. As the devide between rich and poor, educated and not, desperate and ignorant, as this divide widens, the violence will only continue to get worse, and innocent people will continue to be murdered.

You say, "well its that way all over the world", but it isn't. The mass murderer in Norway was such a shock because Norway has one of the lowest crimes rates in the world.

I'm worried that we're exporting this desperation that when the world gives you peanut, you start killing people. What happened to people just running off into the woods and becoming novelists?

PHeller wrote: What happened to people just running off into the woods and becoming novelists?

They can barely write a decent manifesto before a shoot these days. I think a sequel to "Civil Disobedience" might be a little optimistic given the state of education today :)

In reply to PHeller:

Or maybe it is just the E36 M3ty media or reporting the bad stuff that happens rather then anything good because a mass killing or murder gets good ratings. There have been serial killers and people going off their rocker and killing people for a long time but it wasn't reported like it is now.

Anyway the simple matter is the 2nd amendment exist and if you want to get it changed start a campaign for a new amendment to change that.

In reply to PHeller:

You're right I think in one fashion. I don't think there's any difference in the "do things yourself mentality" per say. It has always been there, but the divide you touch on is what makes it more prevalent along with mass media of modern day. Its spreading outside the US because other countries are failing in the same areas as the US. You can blame it on democrats, republicans, KFC, out Chic-fil-a, but its happening everywhere. What can be done about it?

I like to think that the solution is showing the populace the escape route. When you look back 25, 50, 75 years, you see that when folks wanted to escape, they could. You could quit your job, hop a train, you might go hungry for a few days, but you'd end up someplace completely different, and no-one would know your name.

Today we get this feeling that we're stuck where we are. In some cases, like urban youth, they want to be stuck where they are. They probably should be forced to go somewhere else, maybe not prison, but I've seen many young people completely changed by a week in the woods. every summer.

Suburban folks are just as bad...we get caught up in mixing up the "needs" and the "wants" and lock ourselves down with burdens we believe we can't escape...and then we blame others for those burdens. "I need less taxes", and "I need more freedom" and "I need a bigger house" and "I need a better car"...well what about just needing food, water, and a roof over your head?

I think that many of today's violent criminal are reacting out of desperation because they believe there is no other path.

I think you guys have nailed the problem on the head. Wait... Hit the nail on the head. Lack of education. No one cares. The government obviously has education low on the list of priorities as opposed to India, Norway, Germany, Sweden, etc. In India, teachers are reveared and looked up at because of what they do for their people. In the US, teachers are belittled and looked down upon becasue they get summers off. My mom was a teacher for 40 years, just retired in May. Said she's seen it go from when it was fun to teach for both the teachers and the children. Now it's instructing them on how to take the government mandated tests. You have to follow a strict guidline and teach exactly what they want you to teach and when they want you to teach it. No more freedom for them. I remember taking field trips because the teacher thought it would be fun for us to go to the Gulf and examine sea life and meet aquatic biologists and explore that world because we showed interest in that subject. Can't do that anymore because in 7th grade, that's not an approved curriculum. School isn't fun, for anyone, teachers or students. Freedom we talk about needs to be reinstated in all aspects of our lives. Government influence should really be restricted to what they NEED to be involved in, not what we or they think they should be involved in.

Don't know if that last sentence made as much sense as I want it to...

Conquest351 wrote: Government influence should really be restricted to what they NEED to be involved in, not what we or they think they should be involved in.

But see we all have differing views on what the government should be involved in.

Some would believe that it is the federal government's job to look out for the development of our nation. If we want to compete with the rest of the world, we need to be smarter, healthier, and happier. This is where federally mandated educational requirements come from. Those standards are set not to compete state to state, but to compete on an international level.

Whether or not that is the best approach is another debate, but it does illustrate the difference between what is good for our country in term of its competition with the world, and whats good for our country internally.

I went to a mix of public and private schools. Overall, my perception is that the education in public schools was quite E36 M3ty, with some being E36 M3tier than others. The federal mandates now have schools doing a better job of being equally E36 M3ty.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

Most bad government has grown out of too much government.

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government

Alright test time who can tell me the name of the person that said all of these things? You get a cookie if you can point out how they relate to the problems expressed in this thread.

Your answer should be in the form of a short essay. No looking at your neighbors answer and keep your notes and books closed. Ok GO!

PHeller wrote:

Conquest351 wrote: Government influence should really be restricted to what they NEED to be involved in, not what we or they think they should be involved in.

But see we all have differing views on what the government should be involved in. If we want to compete with the rest of the world, we need to be smarter, healthier, and happier.

This is 100% true. This is where the party diversification comes into effect. I tend to be more Libertarian when it comes to government influence in my daily life. But I also have liberal views on other things, and conservitive views on still others. No one can say they're 100% anything.

Crazy how we've gone from a gun thread to something else entirely, and all the while we're being pretty civil. Love you guys.

Anyway, yes, Government standards should be set on education. That I agree with. BUT, the fact of the matter is that the government control for those standards goes as far as pretty much planning the teachers entire curriculum for them. That I do not agree with.

Conquest351 wrote: I think you guys have shot the nail through the head Wait... Hit the nail on the head.

FTFY

PHeller wrote: I like to think that the solution is showing the populace the escape route. When you look back 25, 50, 75 years, you see that when folks wanted to escape, they could. You could quit your job, hop a train, you might go hungry for a few days, but you'd end up someplace completely different, and no-one would know your name. Today we get this feeling that we're stuck where we are. In some cases, like urban youth, they want to be stuck where they are. They probably should be forced to go somewhere else, maybe not prison, but I've seen many young people completely changed by a week in the woods. every summer. Suburban folks are just as bad...we get caught up in mixing up the "needs" and the "wants" and lock ourselves down with burdens we believe we can't escape...and then we blame others for those burdens. "I need less taxes", and "I need more freedom" and "I need a bigger house" and "I need a better car"...well what about just needing food, water, and a roof over your head? I think that many of today's violent criminal are reacting out of desperation because they believe there is no other path.

Definitely a possibility, but at the same time for instance, in a city like Saint Louis, a life of crime can appear so attractive and easy. The kids are pulled towards it. It starts with a misdemeanor, then a felony, and now you'll rarely find a job outside mcdonalds.

The dealers around here make a lot more money than me.

PHeller wrote: If we want to compete with the rest of the world, we need to be smarter, healthier, and happier.

We need to be free of tyranny. Independent, thoughtful and resourceful. Maybe a little hungry at times.

Healthy, happy people sit on their laurels until the world passes them by.

Government and society has changed greatly since the days of our Founding Fathers. Using them as way of guiding today's society is like using yesterday's science to treat cancer today. We've got a few billion more people today than we did in the times of Jefferson.

This is why I am a progressive. Not a liberal, not a republican, not a libertarian. I believe that in order for our society to function, it must constantly progress. Trial and error, experimentation, hardship, all requirement of a successful product, and our nation, any nation, is no different.

This comes full circle back to gun control because I believe IN MY OWN OPINION we have not tried hard enough to keep crazies from guns. There is no progression, just a continued response of "less regulation and more guns" and "there will always be violence". If you can say "educational mandates have not been successful" than why can I not say "firearm regulations have not been successful?"

Our country has progressed since the times of Jefferson because laws have changed, the Bill of Rights has changed, and society has changed; for what we hope is the better.

When people say we need less government, less regulation, and need to return to a society of 100 years ago, it's like saying we need to be more like the Democratic Republic of Congo, instead of more like those countries that have happier, healthier, and more productive economies.

In reply to Conquest351:

Honestly I don't think it that crazy at all. What we are discussing are the truths and rights of those people in our country. In that respect it is all connected and equally important. It is my belief that all of the rights that we enjoy as Americans are intertwined and they aid in the protection of each other. In todays world many of our rights are under attack in various forms and they must be protected at all costs or we will find ourselves living firmly as slaves.

On the topic of education yes their should be some sort of standard that is set. However that standard should be the goal and allow the teachers the teahers the freedom to teach students in their own way and using the vast resources of our world as aids. The teaching of how to basically complete a government standardized test teaches the children nothing and allows them to experience nothing. There is far more to education than quoting facts and figures. There is far more to knowing why the answer is 42 than just knowing the answer is 42.

In reply to PHeller:

Keeping guns out of criminals hands is a war and Albert Einstein said, you cannot simultaneously prepare for and prevent war. Although its not completely fitting, I think that line of thought can be molded to the current situation. We want to prevent street warfare. They already have the weapons. We (or the government) can't walk up and say "give me your illegal weapons." we must instead prepare for a fight and hope it never happens.

This is nothing new......its the same thing that drew people to crime in the 20's and 30's.......lack of employment, hard times, etc...

In most cases, but not all, families these days try to live outside of their means, the "We have to have fancy cars", "We have to have a big expensive house", and "We have to have nice things in both" mentality that has lead both parents into working more hours makes the kids suffer. I went to a school in BFE, and we had great teachers and programs.....I still am certain that most of the root cause of issues with todays youth is the simple "Bad Parenting" reason. If parents were around/cared more, you wouldn't have 12yo's running around town at midnight and about the same age group yelling obscenities at passing people. Its embarassing to see society go down the E36 M3ter like that.

rebelgtp wrote:

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

Most bad government has grown out of too much government.

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government

Alright test time who can tell me the name of the person that said all of these things? You get a cookie if you can point out how they relate to the problems expressed in this thread. Your answer should be in the form of a short essay. No looking at your neighbors answer and keep your notes and books closed. Ok GO!

Most likely Thomas Jefferson. Didn't google it or anything.

It seems that he's pointing out what I've said for a while. We aren't entitled to anything but Life, Liberty and the persuit of Happiness. Everything else you have to work for.

Conquest351 wrote: It seems that he's pointing out what I've said for a while. We aren't entitled to anything but Life, Liberty and the persuit of Happiness. Everything else you have to work for.

...but is if we are denying others the right to live by equating liberty with the right to own guns...don't we need to decide which of those two are more important?

I'm not asking for a ban on guns, I'm asking for more regulation. You can still have them, if your not a racist, violent, drunk.

rebelgtp said: There is far more to knowing why the answer is 42 than just knowing the answer is 42.

Very true. Modern education is fixated on yes/no answers. There is no room for imagination or REAL cognitive thought processes.

In third grade I remember a question in which I argued with the teacher.
There was a picture with a man throwing trash over his back and into (actually missing) a trash can. "Is this littering?" it asked.
"No," I thought, thinking he's inside. That won't go anywhere or blow away. If he were outside, it would be. He can pick it up later, or at least that would be the right thing to do.
Point is, I was wrong. To this day, I think I'm right.