When stupid attacks! - steer by wire

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/17/nissan-to-offer-steer-by-wire-systems-in-some-infinity-cars/

Wow, just wow. Do these guys have actual engineers working for them?

I read that yesterday and shuddered instantly.

one electrical malfunction and you have unintended acceleration and an unexpected hard left.

[Luddite] Nope, not me. Gimme that ol' time religion, er, mechanical steering thankyaverramuch. I don't like the drive by wire throttle, either. [/Luddite]

some things should simply be required to be a mechanical linkage- steering being one of them. brakes should be hydraulic, parking brakes should be cables, and the shifter should be required to have an actual physical connection to the transmission.

stuff like this might be fine for aircraft that are a special application that are rigorously maintained and regulated, but put millions of these things out in the real world and see what 150,000 miles of average car "maintenance" does to the electronics...

Steering is the very last thing on a car that should not use a mechanical linkage.

GameboyRMH wrote: Steering is the very last thing on a car that should not use a mechanical linkage.

"Something" tells me there's a failsafe engineered somewhere in the system. I 'm "pretty sure" a mega-company like Nissan would not open themselves to that kind of litigation.

I wonder how and on which parameters Mr. O'brien reached this conclusion. Terrence O'Brien said: Of course, the lack of direct feedback as your tires turn over the road may lead some to cling tight to their mechanical steering apparatus, though, moving to a digital steering system should lead to better handling vehicles.

GM's Magnasteer electric boost system worked pretty well, its best quality was the ease of 'weighting' the steering electronically. But if it failed, the car could still be steered normally. That's not an option with steer by wire.

I swear my next car will have a carb and points. Screw this noise.

fifty wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: Steering is the very last thing on a car that should not use a mechanical linkage.

"Something" tells me there's a failsafe engineered somewhere in the system. I 'm "pretty sure" a mega-company like Nissan would not open themselves to that kind of litigation.

they can have all the failsafes they want- it only adds complexity, weight, and cost- but in the end you are trusting that the computer that controls your car will decide whether or not it should do what you tell it to.

Even mechanical steering systems can fail, such as what allegedly did Ayrton Senna in. But having seen far too many electronic systems with a 'hitch in its git along' with no particular visible cause, well I wanna leave that kind of crap to happen with my radio or power windows or etc. NOT my directional controls.

I didn't see this mentioned in the above page, but "The Infiniti cars with the new steering technology will get a backup clutch that will link the wheels and tires mechanically in the event of a problem." from here: http://www.insideline.com/infiniti/some-infiniti-cars-to-get-electronic-steering-within-a-year-says-nissan.html

I assume the system will have multiple, independent sensors/wiring/actuators just like airplanes do, and it has a mechanical backup system if all of the electronics fail.

Besides, it's not like mechanical systems are foolproof.

Chrysler steering recall: http://www.insideline.com/chrysler/200/chrysler-recalls-2011-vehicles-for-steering-problem.html

Nissan/Infiniti steering recall: http://www.insideline.com/nissan/pathfinder/nissan-pathfinder-infiniti-qx4-recalled-for-potential-steering-column-failure.html

Toyota Steering Recall: http://www.insideline.com/toyota/prius/toyota-prius-recalled-for-steering-problem.html

Chevy Cruze Steering Recall: http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/cruze/2011/2011-chevrolet-cruze-recalled-because-steering-wheel-can-detach.html

Dodge Truck Steering Recall: http://www.insideline.com/dodge/ram-pickup-2500/feds-probe-2008-11-dodge-ram-2500-and-3500-for-possible-steering-loss.html

Of course, Infiniti is also being investigated for problems with their electronic brake assist where it has twice braked the car when the driver didn't want to, so I guess people have reason to be wary of the car steering itself into oncoming traffic. http://www.insideline.com/infiniti/jx/2013/2013-infiniti-jx35-probed-by-federal-safety-regulators.html

This and the widespread use if cvts, Nissan is dead to me

Schmidlap wrote: I didn't see this mentioned in the above page, but "The Infiniti cars with the new steering technology will get a backup clutch that will link the wheels and tires mechanically in the event of a problem." from here: http://www.insideline.com/infiniti/some-infiniti-cars-to-get-electronic-steering-within-a-year-says-nissan.html

So they still have the whole mechanical steering system in place, plus a clutch, and then there will need to be a backup system to detect a malfunction of the steer-by-wire and activate said clutch?

We do all realize that airplanes have been controlled by wired controls rather than physical linkages for decades now, right?

Next thing you know, they'll be making some sort of device that will signal to us when we have correct tire pressures set!!!!!

GameboyRMH wrote: http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/17/nissan-to-offer-steer-by-wire-systems-in-some-infinity-cars/ Wow, just wow. Do these guys have actual engineers working for them?

Seriously? "Actual engineers" are not capable of thinking of electronic steering? Sad.

Again, this arrogant engineer challenges all of you anti to join companies and bless us all with your incredible insight.

Lugnut wrote: We do all realize that airplanes have been controlled by wired controls rather than physical linkages for decades now, right? Next thing you know, they'll be making some sort of device that will signal to us when we have correct tire pressures set!!!!!

True but they're built a lot better than your average family sedan with redundant systems, and usually aren't just a few feet from vehicles oncoming at the same speed.

alfadriver wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/17/nissan-to-offer-steer-by-wire-systems-in-some-infinity-cars/ Wow, just wow. Do these guys have actual engineers working for them?

Seriously? "Actual engineers" are not capable of thinking of electronic steering? Sad. Again, this arrogant engineer challenges all of you anti to join companies and bless us all with your incredible insight.

It isn't that. What is meant is it really a better idea then what we have already? Given the amount of electronic/electrical crap issues out there, the answer is no. It's been how many years that EFI has been around, yet seemingly everyday there is an update to fix something somewhere. It is the little things that sour the bigger potential picture.

That being said, I'll stick to my mechanical linkages that wear out and need replacing every once in awhile.

Do guys ever fly? Do you think the pilot of a 757 is really steering that thing with big metal rod to the flaps? Do you think a single axis automobile system is more complicated than the one that steers a stealth bomber? This is old tech coming mainstream to make things lighter and easier to package.

Steer by wire, throttle by wire, brake by wire, electronic fuel injection, acquired lock missile systems... all done to well beyond the requirements of the automobile. The reason you will die in a wired steering car isn't because of engineers. It is because of bean counters and attorneys.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Lugnut wrote: We do all realize that airplanes have been controlled by wired controls rather than physical linkages for decades now, right? Next thing you know, they'll be making some sort of device that will signal to us when we have correct tire pressures set!!!!!

True but they're built a lot better than your average family sedan with redundant systems, and usually aren't just a few feet from vehicles oncoming at the same speed.

Plus, aircraft are subjected to very good maintenance and inspection, far more often than most people even open their hoods.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: The reason you will die in a wired steering car isn't because of engineers. It is because of bean counters and attorneys.

Which is why the far harder to berkeley up mechanical systems need to stay.

/thread

It's insane what we've allowed cars to become. By today's standards, making a car is pretty straightforward stuff. Why add expense and complexity?

Silly.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: Why add expense and complexity? Silly.

Because they can.

81cpcamaro wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

Lugnut wrote: We do all realize that airplanes have been controlled by wired controls rather than physical linkages for decades now, right? Next thing you know, they'll be making some sort of device that will signal to us when we have correct tire pressures set!!!!!

True but they're built a lot better than your average family sedan with redundant systems, and usually aren't just a few feet from vehicles oncoming at the same speed.

Plus, aircraft are subjected to very good maintenance and inspection, far more often than most people even open their hoods.

this right here....

for those that watch topgear this just reminds me of the auto-maton (SP?) where clarkson talks about "larry" (if I recall right) comming the other direction

its neat... and i'm sure it reduces vibration and road feedback to the driver (good for most that would drive a lux barge)... but seeing the problems they've had with far less important systems in the last decade makes it a bit questionable...

Steer by wire, wouldn't that be just like your gaming wheel?

What kind of feedback do you get off of that? Not real feedback that's for sure. When you are anywhere near to the edge the feedback is crucial to getting away from the edge. That's why so many didn't like power steering in the early days, it masked the tire and road feel.

If you are going to have mechanical linkage anyway then why bother with steer by wire?