Where are all the younger folks?

WonkoTheSane said:

This is more a factor of modern life than anything different with newer generation.   Objectively, individual productivity has shot up an amazing amount over the last 50-100 years.  What that practically means is that everyone is expected to do 4x the work that the same sort of position did 50 years ago.   That means that your brain needs to be on 100% of the time.

Take something like classical engineering/product design.  Pre/early-computers, an engineer would come up with the overall design, hand off material selection to jr engineers, hand off drawing and production duties to drafters and PMs, etc. 

Now, that same engineer has to do all material selections, modeling, FEA, drafting, etc, while coordinating with the CAM programmers/production engineering at wherever they outsourced the production to.

That's a lot of mental switching, so I see a lot of burnout in my industry (CNC programming/manufacturing) and adjacent careers such as engineering and product design.

"Entry level position. Requires 3-5 years of experience."

Yep, when I finished school and was looking for a drafting job a lot of the listings were pretty much looking for engineers when it came to mechanical drawing. Architectural drafting jobs wanted arch students who would work for peanuts.

I applaud people that make their lives work by working less if I haven't made it clear. Literally, if I have my way it's 4 6-7 hour days a week here, if I'm working 40 hours something has gone terribly wrong. These last 2 years I've been working way too much, but with the economy the way it is and the ridiculous amount of work available it's been hard to say no.

I think people take about as much pride as they used to in their work, there just seems to be a dearth of hope really. In a way I get it, rent is super high, groceries are super high and if you work a lot you just tread water a little better  but jobs like I'm offering aren't just a paycheck, it's skills you can take anywhere and make a life. It's worth it yo at least try it.

One of the guys I mentioned told me that he wants to see his kids more, and basically just needs to make $800 a week, after that he'd like to be home. I was fine with that, I'm huge on realizing what kind of life you want compared to the sacrifice of working you are willing to do.

The problem is, that requires a lot of discipline to a budget and a goal, and this is where a lot of people seem to fail IME. He did too because his other half couldn't handle the stress of "only" being 3 months ahead on their mortgage. Seriously, like .......breaking down and weeping because 3 months means they would lose their house in 90 days.

Nevermind that they had a savings, and he could have worked more if he wanted to and there was regular paychecks holding them at such a low figure that they "only" where 3 months ahead on their mortgage.

It was a super weird situation, and I'm sure there were other factors but that discipline seems to elude lots of people. 

yupididit said:

SV reX said:

In reply to j_tso :

Im not able to relate to a world where contentment is rare and people don't value and take pride in what they contribute to society. 

Where in the world does it say this anywhere about young people?

The younger generations take just as much pride, if not more pride, in their positive contributions to society (the world) than older generations. Those contributions just aren't associated with their work hours and willingness to be tied to the rules/parameters/culture of capitalism for workers. 

What are you not able to relate to?A lack of understanding might not be your fault. I feel like 2 generations of separation causes this misunderstanding. 

I'm referring to the lasting and measurable things I build in the context of my work that are a direct part of the economy and the society we live in.  Not the less tangible aspects (which are also important)

I'm working pretty hard to be careful about the words I choose. Guess anything can be interpreted a different  way. 
 

The words you chose came across to me as "You're too old to understand".  I realize you may not have intended that.

Im not 2 generations removed from the people I am referring to. I'm literally referring to people my kid's age.  I'm not a teetering old man.

 I'm not too old to remember what it was like when I was young. And humans just haven't changed that much in several thousand years. 
 

We are not living in a new time when humans and our needs and interactions have fundamentally changed. We are living in a time when there are some new tools and opportunities to take advantage of as we live our human lives.  Young people in the 60's and 70's thought they were totally different too, and that older people couldn't understand them. Guess what?  Those folks are now the old people, and they really aren't that much different then the generations before them.

The nature of being young includes some level of idealism, and a belief that older people are different and don't understand. Then we get old, and some of that dies.

The basic needs of people to need security, value, and fulfillment haven't changed. Part of where I have found those things is in my work. I'd like others to be able to experience that, but instead I hear a great deal of discontentment and nihilism from younger people.

Work/ life balance is extremely important.  Some people accomplish that by working less and then pursuing fulfillment in their hobbies and avocations.  Some people find that fulfillment and balance IN the workplace.  Neither is wrong- they are just different.

In reply to SV reX :

Happy belated bday. 

You're 63 which 2 generations at the least from the young folks entering the workforce (Gen Z). I don't think you're too old to understand, I just think we relate less and less as we age 

In reply to aircooled :

When you only live for today, time will eventually kick you in the nuts.

I'm just getting caught up on this discussion, but I wanted to highlight this quote from a few pages back. I see lots of people making the same mistakes at those before them. Live for today is not new, we are just finding new ways to justify it, which sound suspiciously like the old ways. There are plenty of people struggling with retirement now that did plenty of living for the day when they were young. My worry is that it's much easier today to embrace that philosophy. Young people are living at home longer. They have much more entertainment available. Much more access to credit allows people to live for today while paying for it tomorrow. They put a lot of value on their virtual life, where sharing how you are living it up today is much more rewarding than planning for the future. The future seems far off to the young, but it comes much quicker than you realize. 
 

Since I love automotive analogies, financial planning is like a drag race. Your 60' time has a big influence on your time at the end of the 1/4 mile. You don't need a lot of power to get into the 12's if you can get a good launch and accelerate hard early in the race. But if you take off slowly like you are driving grandma to church, you are going to need a lot more power make it up at the far end of the track. Your financial well being works the same way. If you get an early start you can reach you goals with a modest income. If you wait too long, you need to be making a lot more money to catch up. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

compound interest is crazy when you start early enough. makes me think of this koozie 

i wish i had maxed my 401k when i had a high paying travel job and no bills at the start of my career. Still got the match and maxed my IRA so not all was lost

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

For sure. I don't remember the exact details but if our kids can invest something like $5k by the time they're 18, when they're 70 it will likely be a million -- which will probably be worth like $250k in today's dollars, but you get the point. 
 

Meanwhile, my wife and I are pouring cash into the investment machine to try to catch up for lots of lost time. 

SV reX said:

I'm referring to the lasting and measurable things I build in the context of my work that are a direct part of the economy and the society we live in.  Not the less tangible aspects (which are also important).....

The basic needs of people to need security, value, and fulfillment haven't changed. Part of where I have found those things is in my work. I'd like others to be able to experience that, but instead I hear a great deal of discontentment and nihilism from younger people......

Work/ life balance is extremely important.  Some people accomplish that by working less and then pursuing fulfillment in their hobbies and avocations.  Some people find that fulfillment and balance IN the workplace.  Neither is wrong- they are just different.

I think a bunch of us are curious as to what a dollar/hour or annually salary would be fair to expect for a new hire fresh out of high school down on the Chattahoochee would be? With growth potential over 3-5 years?

I know what offer's kids from Auburn are getting offered and what their hourly rates are as interns in my field (engineering) for industrial emplyeers in your back yard.

SV reX said:

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

What's your sick, personal, and PTO leave policy like?

15 PTO days per year no questions asked plus 8 Holidays.  401K company match and health.

I also work 10 hour days and get 3 day weekends every single week.

Don't think that's the problem. 

That seems to be an exception, or maybe the construction world has changed in the last decade.  My perception is that yes, there is money to be made, but you're going to work your ass off for it, wear your body out early, and the income is either feast or famine.  100 hours this week, 10 next.  If that's not the reality, then communicating that is at least half of the marketing that needs to be done IMO.

In reply to gixxeropa :

upvote for The Money Guys!

In reply to yupididit :

Where in the world does it say this anywhere about young people?

The younger generations take just as much pride, if not more pride, in their positive contributions to society (the world) than older generations. Those contributions just aren't associated with their work hours and willingness to be tied to the rules/parameters/culture of capitalism for workers. 

What are you not able to relate to?A lack of understanding might not be your fault. I feel like 2 generations of separation causes this misunderstanding. 
 

I don't think any of the above is anything new- previous generations also took pride in their contributions to society, which has been in constant change. But I argue that they also- as a whole- took more pride in their work. We don't need to choose between one or the other. My observations as someone in business, a consumer, and as someone who has been working for over 30 years- the average worker cares less about their job performance than they did in years past, with the expected results. 
 

Now, that does not mean that the later generations are inherently different. There are many other factors that have changed, and the differences may largely be a product of their environment. For example, it was common with previous generations that if you did a bad job, you were fired. Depending on the economy at the time, it wasn't easy to get another job. Getting fired could also be used as a strike against you when seeking new employment. In short, people may have just done better jobs because the had to, Vs. some work moral compass. Working hard was normal, normal became the standard. Today, it takes an act of congress to get fired from most jobs, and people know it. A continued strong economy and low unemployment has caused many employers to lower their standards. People today don't HAVE to do as good a job. If the situations were flipped, the later generations might be complaining  about the bad work ethic of the previous generations. 

In reply to DILYSI Dave :

I guarantee 40 hours per week. You will not make less than that even if we are slow. 2 weeks PTO to start. Medical. We work 8-4 so they get paid for lunch. As a plus, the guys spend about 30% of their time riding around in nice air-conditioned trucks that I pay for and fuel. My highest-paid guy started as a helper at $10/hr 17 years ago. He stuck with it and put forth the effort to be better. He's now second in command and making north of $80k.

The construction industry is what you make of it. If you are a plodder doing the minimum, you will stay at the bottom of the stack. If you have ambition and do the work to the best of your ability, you can end up in management. If you have a lot of ambition you can start your own company. 

Toyman! said:

In reply to DILYSI Dave :

...If you have a lot of ambition you can start your own company. 

THIS is where I see the potential for folks early in their career.  A lot of businesses, it's a real PITA to go the entreprenuership route.  The trades seem like a much lower barrier to entry, and the dudes in the trades I know who are doing well are the ones who are working for themselves.  

Boost_Crazy said:

Now, that does not mean that the later generations are inherently different. There are many other factors that have changed, and the differences may largely be a product of their environment. For example, it was common with previous generations that if you did a bad job, you were fired. Depending on the economy at the time, it wasn't easy to get another job. Getting fired could also be used as a strike against you when seeking new employment. In short, people may have just done better jobs because the had to, Vs. some work moral compass. Working hard was normal, normal became the standard. Today, it takes an act of congress to get fired from most jobs, and people know it. A continued strong economy and low unemployment has caused many employers to lower their standards. People today don't HAVE to do as good a job. If the situations were flipped, the later generations might be complaining  about the bad work ethic of the previous generations. 

That doesn't match my experience at all. I've never worked at a place where people couldn't be rapidly and often seemingly randomly E36 M3canned. At one company a bunch of random E36 M3cannings happened under one particular boss who would cite "confidentiality issues" which we pretty quickly figured out meant "no good reason." The last place I worked seemed to do Microsoft-style stack-ranking, I don't remember anyone ever being hired in tech support without someone also being fired at about the same time, so pretty soon you learned that a new hire meant that someone was about to get the axe if it hadn't happened recently and that the promised land of hiring enough people to bring the workload down to a reasonable level would likely never be reached. Due to a little scheduling problem I actually met my replacement at that company the morning of the day I was let go when we weren't intended to meet, it's good that he got to see how that company operates early on...

I find it interesting that when the topic of trades comes up on this forum it instantly means construction.

Construction is the last thing I think of when I think of trades. I automatically think of industrial/manufacturing.

To give you an idea how difficult it is to find decent people, I suspected, and found out last week that I was brought back entirely to keep the young guys happy in the hopes that they would not jump ship. And despite being dead slow, maintenance is now getting regular over time if they want it, doing work that could just as easily be done during the week.

GameboyRMH said:

Boost_Crazy said:

Now, that does not mean that the later generations are inherently different. There are many other factors that have changed, and the differences may largely be a product of their environment. For example, it was common with previous generations that if you did a bad job, you were fired. Depending on the economy at the time, it wasn't easy to get another job. Getting fired could also be used as a strike against you when seeking new employment. In short, people may have just done better jobs because the had to, Vs. some work moral compass. Working hard was normal, normal became the standard. Today, it takes an act of congress to get fired from most jobs, and people know it. A continued strong economy and low unemployment has caused many employers to lower their standards. People today don't HAVE to do as good a job. If the situations were flipped, the later generations might be complaining  about the bad work ethic of the previous generations. 

That doesn't match my experience at all. I've never worked at a place where people couldn't be rapidly and often seemingly randomly E36 M3canned. At one company a bunch of random E36 M3cannings happened under one particular boss who would cite "confidentiality issues" which we pretty quickly figured out meant "no good reason." The last place I worked seemed to do Microsoft-style stack-ranking, I don't remember anyone ever being hired in tech support without someone also being fired at about the same time, so pretty soon you learned that a new hire meant that someone was about to get the axe if it hadn't happened recently and that the promised land of hiring enough people to bring the workload down to a reasonable level would likely never be reached. Due to a little scheduling problem I actually met my replacement at that company the morning of the day I was let go when we weren't intended to meet, it's good that he got to see how that company operates early on...

I'm guessing that is more due to the field that you are in, rather than a representation of the norm. It appears that IT has a glut of labor available compared the the available jobs. My experience is in California, which is a factor.  I've also found that the larger the company, the tighter they are on their firing policies. 

Boost_Crazy said:

 

I'm guessing that is more due to the field that you are in, rather than a representation of the norm. It appears that IT has a glut of labor available compared the the available jobs. My experience is in California, which is a factor.  I've also found that the larger the company, the tighter they are on their firing policies. 

Large companies are weird like that. Sure, you probably won't get fired for being terrible at your job, but next quarter they might lay off a seemingly random 10% of the company regardless of merit, work ethic, or experience. 

DILYSI Dave said:

SV reX said:

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

What's your sick, personal, and PTO leave policy like?

15 PTO days per year no questions asked plus 8 Holidays.  401K company match and health.

I also work 10 hour days and get 3 day weekends every single week.

Don't think that's the problem. 

That seems to be an exception, or maybe the construction world has changed in the last decade.  My perception is that yes, there is money to be made, but you're going to work your ass off for it, wear your body out early, and the income is either feast or famine.  100 hours this week, 10 next.  If that's not the reality, then communicating that is at least half of the marketing that needs to be done IMO.

That's fairly normal in a lot of the construction industry. 
 

Yes, there are some E36 M3ty jobs in construction. Just as any industry. And residential construction isn't a very good sector. But commercial, industrial, government, infrastructure, medical, institutional, and other construction sectors all now typically have reasonably comprehensive benefits packages. 
 

I get 20-30 headhunters a month approach me with offers. All of them include those types of benefits.  All include 6 figure salaries.

And as Mr Peabody has noted, construction is a small part of the overall trades.

yupididit said:

In reply to SV reX :

Happy belated bday. 

You're 63 which 2 generations at the least from the young folks entering the workforce (Gen Z). I don't think you're too old to understand, I just think we relate less and less as we age 

This is true, but my first post in this thread noted people missing from every age group, not just 20 somethings.

Im not as concerned about people entering the workforce. That's the Wild West- in every career.  But younger move-up people are also missing, people in their 30's and 40's. And those are the people we need now (and people who can earn a very good salary).

A 20 year old can't replace a 50 year old. They don't have enough experience. Some folks don't want to hear that, but it's true.

Nobody told the tech industry, and especially not IBM, that a 20 year old can't replace a 50 year old...

Here's how my job search applying to some of these jobs has gone since mid/late last week. No response from the pipeline construction job or a landscaping job, rejected in under 24 hours from another landscaping job despite meeting all the stated requirements. They don't seem to need people that badly.

johndej said:

SV reX said:

I'm referring to the lasting and measurable things I build in the context of my work that are a direct part of the economy and the society we live in.  Not the less tangible aspects (which are also important).....

The basic needs of people to need security, value, and fulfillment haven't changed. Part of where I have found those things is in my work. I'd like others to be able to experience that, but instead I hear a great deal of discontentment and nihilism from younger people......

Work/ life balance is extremely important.  Some people accomplish that by working less and then pursuing fulfillment in their hobbies and avocations.  Some people find that fulfillment and balance IN the workplace.  Neither is wrong- they are just different.

I think a bunch of us are curious as to what a dollar/hour or annually salary would be fair to expect for a new hire fresh out of high school down on the Chattahoochee would be? With growth potential over 3-5 years?

I know what offer's kids from Auburn are getting offered and what their hourly rates are as interns in my field (engineering) for industrial emplyeers in your back yard.

I haven't missed your question, but it's not really one I am qualified to answer. I am not a hiring agent, I don't work in the Chattahoochee Valley, I've never done a job in AL, and I don't know a damned thing about Auburn.  It doesn't feel like a fair question, and it feels like something that could be argued endlessly without many facts.

I get it. You don't think construction jobs are good jobs. I do.  No problem.  We have different viewpoints.

I work mostly in GA.  No one works in construction for minimum wage. No one works for 2X minimum wage.  3-4X minimum wage is normal range for someone with only a couple years experience. $50-60K.

They generally start their careers earlier than college bound students.  While their college bound counterparts are amassing large debts for their education, tradesmen and women are getting a 4 year jumpstart on their earnings. That's a positive $150K or so, instead of $150K in debt- a $300K difference.

It's common for people with 20 years experience to make $80-120K per year in construction.  With a full benefits package. 

I understand this is not people's perception.  
 

I still don't know anything about Auburn. 🙄

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I don't think your experiences have anything to do with whether the trades are hiring or not.

Your resume and your experiences are not in keeping with who they typically hire. 
 

You wouldn't do well on most of the crews I am familiar with.  I know you are broadening your search (and I respect that), but I think you are chasing a path that isn't a good fit for you.

In reply to SV reX :

It could help answer the question of "WHERE IS EVERYBODY?" though. A generation or three who grew up having the utmost importance of getting a college education to land a white-collar job beaten into them decided to avoid the beginning of the trades jobs pipeline, and perhaps those trades need to broaden their horizons and let some atypical people in from outside that pipeline. If they really want to fill in the gap from when people started avoiding the trades to whenever they can convince kids fresh out of high school to stop doing that, they have no choice.

I probably should've added in my resume that the gig work I'm doing right now has me crouching literally hundreds of times per day until I start having 10-second-long grayouts, which I still push through, maybe that would convince them that I won't faint like a cartoon Victorian lady the moment I step outside of an office or do anything more physical than lifting a desktop PC onto a desk.

If prior generations took more pride in their work, and were willing to do more for their employers, I think that's because they believed that their employers took more pride in how they benefited society and how they took care of their workers. The relationship between employees and employers has eroded with each party only looking out for themselves.

It's my understanding that prior to the 1970s, most companies in the US were content to make some profit, produce goods or services, and provide jobs for people. It was a balance between profit and social/worker benefit. Pensions were commonplace, executive pay was good but not 20X what the average worker was paid, and corporate tax rates were higher. Unions were more commonplace to hold management accountable. Outsourcing was not a thing.

That all changed in the early-mid 70s as corporations adopted Freidman's belief that investor returns should be the highest priority for a business. Businesses have been laser focused on profit above all for the last ~50 years, and that has damaged the relationship between employees and employers. Employees now have to fend for themselves when it comes to retirement. They have to jump jobs to get meaningful pay increases. They have a more adversarial view of the labor/management relationship, and seem to be far more aware that each party is trying to extract more value from the other. We're now 3 generations into businesses maximizing profit for investors/owners while low level employees struggle to keep afloat. Kids these days have little or no hope because they're being raised by people that lost hope 15-20 years ago when the policies their grandparents put in place really started to be felt.

SV reX said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I don't think your experiences have anything to do with whether the trades are hiring or not.

Your resume and your experiences are not in keeping with who they typically hire. 
 

To be fair to him, it's really tough around here right now. Unless you're a skilled trade there's no work, and companies are either laying off or have hiring freezes. He's not the only one I know in that position right now.