If I ask you to do something (that is in your contract) don't then proceed to tell me how I can do it.
Is this a new thing? I am getting more and more of this and I am getting tired of being nice to these people. I am most likely just going to start moving on from these companies that have staff like this. Is this a younger generation's way of responding to being told what to do?
Sub-consultants are driving me nuts this week.
In reply to dean1484 :
It depends. I assume the first part is about an employee. If not, please adjust accordingly.
Is your employee just lazy, or are they interested in business efficiency? Case in point:
I am spending all afternoon helping one of my bosses (who is, incidentally, 8 years younger than I am) with Revit / CAD for a project he's working on.
Now, I can sit here and be his hands while he tells me what he wants where, and we can spend $350 an hour while I basically draft for him. My duties include pretty much anything legal and ethical that he directs me to do, so I'll do it.
-OR-
I can tell him how to do it himself, and he can spend $200 an hour on this project, and I can spend $150 an hour on a different project, and we'll (theoretically) get twice as much work done. Which makes the office that much more cost-efficient.
Did the guy imply it was your job or was he trying to make the system more efficient?
To Sub: "Look, your job, get on it, I don't care how as long as the results are what are required".
Consultant on a project and the task is specifically stated as something they are to provide.
dean1484 said:Consultant on a project and the task is specifically stated as something they are to provide.
Then, yeah. Either they do it or you arbitrarily issue a contract amendment removing it from their scope (and fee) and a letter explaining exactly why.
Did the consultant actually read the contract? Or were they just assigned to the project with only general instructions?
Consultants can be good. They can also ask to borrow your watch so they can tell you the time.
The people who really piss me off are the ones that go directly into excuse and blame mode when I ask a question.
In reply to dean1484 :
You wanted people to read and follow instructions?
dean1484 said:Consultant on a project and the task is specifically stated as something they are to provide.
More detail please.
As an architect "practicing" for 30 years.. I have gained some wisdom. But it wasn't until I worked as a consultant for 18 months that everything about how I treat consultants changed.
Consider the possibility that this consultant might have a solid reason for their "alternate idea". Do you know what it is?
MEP consultant here. Go ahead, caller. What's the situation?
The consultant knew she owned it. We talked about a week earlier in a meeting.
OHSCrifle said:dean1484 said:Consultant on a project and the task is specifically stated as something they are to provide.
More detail please.
As an architect "practicing" for 30 years.. I have gained some wisdom. But it wasn't until I worked as a consultant for 18 months that everything about how I treat consultants changed.
Consider the possibility that this consultant might have a solid reason for their "alternate idea". Do you know what it is?
No alternate idea was proposed unless you consider them telling me how to do a task that they are contractually responsible for is an alternative idea. To me it is just them being lazy and trying to get us to do there job.
My "Alternative idea" is seeing if someone else can do it.
In reply to OHSCrifle :
If it matters I have been in the buisness for 40 years. Now I feel old.
dean1484 said:In reply to OHSCrifle :
If it matters I have been in the buisness for 40 years. Now I feel old.
It is what it is.
Side note: before I had worked 10, then 20 years (and before LinkedIn) I thought those milestones were something impressive. Now I just feel old.
But you still haven't said what was the laziness you are describing. I'm guessing it was drawing the "background" for one of your roof jobs. If this "consultant" was your drafter then I agree with your assessment. If it's not, I remain curious because your rant is just too vague.
dean1484 said: No alternate idea was proposed unless you consider them telling me how to do a task that they are contractually responsible for is an alternative idea. To me it is just them being lazy and trying to get us to do there job.
I'd send a communication to the consultant and whoever is in line above them in the chain of command to the effect of:
Hello, y'all. As per the contract we are expecting (thing to be delivered) by (date). Failure to have (thing) by (date) will result in (consequences). Thank you for removing your head from your butt, Dean.
DarkMonohue said:MEP consultant here. Go ahead, caller. What's the situation?
Off-topic question for you. You touched a nerve that's bothered me (mildly) for 30 years.
For decades, in the old CSI format, Mechanical / Plumbing was Division 15 and Electrical was Division 16. This only recently changed, but Electrical is still after Mechanical and Plumbing.
Typically (and historically), drawing sets are organized with Mechanical first, then Plumbing, then Electrical.
So why do nearly all consulting engineers insist on calling themselves MEP instead of MPE?
I'd genuinely like to know.
MEP flows better off the tongue than MPE. Plus, does anyone really care about plumbing engineers? 
Duke said:Off-topic question for you. You touched a nerve that's bothered me (mildly) for 30 years.
For decades, in the old CSI format, Mechanical / Plumbing was Division 15 and Electrical was Division 16. This only recently changed, but Electrical is still after Mechanical and Plumbing.
Typically (and historically), drawing sets are organized with Mechanical first, then Plumbing, then Electrical.
So why do nearly all consulting engineers insist on calling themselves MEP instead of MPE?
I'd genuinely like to know.
I can only speculate it's because MEP rolls off the tongue a little easier than MPE. Mechanical, Electrical, Plumbing is also easier to say quickly than Mechanical, Plumbing, Electrical, and has a nicer sound to it.
I'm in Electrical. We're always at the back of the bus when it comes to getting information from M&P. I don't care where we are in the drawing set or where we are listed on the sign so long as we get timely communication from everybody else on the job.
Plumbing is last because E36 M3 goes downhill, obviously.
The consultants job is to do as little work with the money provided. This is consulting 101 and not sure why it is a surprise. Regardless if its in the contract and obvious. The larger the firm the better they are at this. The biggest consulting agencies sell things that are E36 M3ty and have done 100x at a premium and why they exist. Its literally their business model.
Employee is a whole diff story.
DarkMonohue said:I can only speculate it's because MEP rolls off the tongue a little easier than MPE. Mechanical, Electrical, Plumbing is also easier to say quickly than Mechanical, Plumbing, Electrical, and has a nicer sound to it.
I respectfully disagree. MEP versus MPE is kind of a wash either way. And (to me at least) "Mechanical, Electrical, Plumbing" is clunky to say because of the double "...ical" word endings in a row. They work better with "Plumbing" between them.
But, my apologies to Dean for diverting his thread. It was just a thing that popped into the forefront of my head when I saw your post.
Tangentially related, when I was a contractor for Spirit Aerosystems writing docs on how to back up/restore huge machines, I got exactly zero help from the Union guys in charge of those machines.
It was a constant "You're just here to do this so they can take our jobs." They didn't care that I was an underpaid contractor just trying to do the job I was given.
Union shops and Defense contractors..........I don't think they would pay me enough to work for either again.
OHSCrifle said:dean1484 said:In reply to OHSCrifle :
If it matters I have been in the buisness for 40 years. Now I feel old.
It is what it is.
Side note: before I had worked 10, then 20 years (and before LinkedIn) I thought those milestones were something impressive. Now I just feel old.
But you still haven't said what was the laziness you are describing. I'm guessing it was drawing the "background" for one of your roof jobs. If this "consultant" was your drafter then I agree with your assessment. If it's not, I remain curious because your rant is just too vague.
MEP consultant. Their work does not overlap with ours on the project.
In reply to dean1484 :
Well, now I'm just curious as can be. Can you share what it is they're not providing?
Maybe this is a regional thing, maybe it's a product of working in a community where most of the players know each other, maybe it's just our corporate culture, but we tend to be pretty damn accommodating to reasonable requests from our clients. If something is in contract, they're getting it. If it's not, but we can do it, and we like them or want to keep them sweet, we usually do so. And if we feel like we're being taken to the cleaners, we do have the ability to point to the contract and tell them we're going to need some more fee if they want to go beyond what they're paying us for. No hard feelings, no finger pointing, just "here's what we agreed to do, and here's what you're asking for now. How would you like to pay?"
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