I worked for the US Fish and Wildife service while in college in the early 70s and could not have loved it any more. Paid to go a collect fish most days by various methods. But, I was a low level flunky and pretty isolated from the BS.
I can't believe i left that job to go on to grad school in entomology.
I designed a couple of building projects for the Air Force. The project delivery process was byzantine to put it mildly. Architect #1 did the preliminary design up to 30%, but was not allowed to complete the project. So of course, Architect #2 threw out most of that design work and did it their way.
Eventually, the project was sent to bid, after being painstakingly designed and documented with many many meetings, reports, reviews, etc.
Once the bids came back, the Air Force procurement staff negotiated with the lowest bidder to radically reduce the costs, which effectively meant the contractor became Architect #3, threw out most of the design work, and did it their way. The projects ended up notably crappier, uglier, and more poorly designed, yet cost easily as much or more than they would have with a traditional Owner/Architect/General Contractor delivery method.
THe Govt process is how we got the Bradley "armored" fighting vehicle, a design by committee.
Its also how we almost didn't get the M-16. Eugene Stoner did it on his own and the military didn't have a chance muck it up. Actually they did once it was put in service witha different and untested powder and issued with no cleaning kits. If it hadn't been for the Air Force ordering some for base security, it may have died on the vine.
You know what's worse than working with the government? Working with certain unions, we are always in and out of shipyards and they make EVERYTHING the government (military at least) does look perfectly well oiled. Nobody is on the same page and the pipe fitters are always at war with the riggers or vice versa. Oh well my personal rant of the moment...
The government is such a wonderful customer. 
We deal with local, state, and federal governments. Sometimes it's not too bad, others, horrible. Depends on the agency.
The local VA isn't too bad, but only because they accidentally hired someone competent to handle the engineering department. The guy before him was abysmal.
The Air Force engineering department is fair, but dealing with the pass office will make you think the DMV is efficient.
The Naval Weapons station will just make you cry. Average time to get on base is 3 hours.
Even though I'm on some military installation at least once a week base access is a pain. You would think they would all be interconnected, particularly Joint Base Charleston after all, they are a "Joint Base". Not the case though. Depending on which gate you go through the paperwork changes. Depending on the guard on duty the requirements change for base access. Lucky for me, I bill by the hour. I get $85/hr surfing the internet in the pass office or actually doing the work they are hiring me for.
The state, we charge extra. Look up inefficient in the dictionary, South Carolina is pictured there. Certified payroll anyone. They seem to want it on everything we do.
The local crowd for the most part isn't too bad.
Just as bad as the government, are the hospitals. A 5 minute repair takes 2-3 hours. First you have to find a place to park. Then you have to apply for a Infection Control Risk Assessment. That usually takes an hour, assuming you don't actually want to do any work. If you have work to do, that process can take days. After doing anything, it has to be inspected by a building engineer. It doesn't matter what you did, it has to be inspected. Tightened a screw, get it inspected. Reprogrammed a door control, get it inspected. Did nothing, get it inspected. Take a crap, get it inspected. God forbid if you actually need access above the ceiling or have to drill something. It takes the engineer at least an hour to do the inspection because they are so busy. A ten floor hospital that covers 2 city blocks, has two of them. I changed a flush bolt last week. Three screws, on a $25 part, that should have taken less than an hour and cost the hospital $100. The bill was over $500 due to wasted time in labor standing around waiting on some bureaucrat. We bill them by the hour too, we refused to quote repairs at most hospitals, after they implemented these regulations. We got burned too bad on the first couple of jobs. They get worse every year. Now you know why health care is so expensive and getting worse. The harder they make it for their vendors the more we charge them.
Edited three times because I'm as bad at proofreading as the government is at everything they do. Just like them, I probably still haven't gotten it right.
Any state work we do (which is very very little by choice) we double our usual bid just because of the headaches and wasted time envolved with doing a job for the state.
Just did a job for the forestry dept. in a national park and it actuall went really smoothly.
Yes I do. Retired military and now DOD civilian. An official double-dipper. Nothing happens fast in the gubmint and it is frustrating dealing with some in the system, they think it's their job to muck things up. Then there is the people that know it is extremely difficult to fire them so they just don't do anything. There is also the ones that work so hard at not doing their job that it would be simpler to just do the job. There are some that think it's there job to make things harder. We have someone in our contracting office that has thinks this and has said it. I don't write contracts but do oversee a couple and work with others. Sometimes people go outside the system to get something and that has come back and bit us, usually not the person that did it though. I can list army agencies that are extremely difficult to deal with. I won't even get into dealing with other PM's around here. You'd think we can communicate with each other but no, they see it as intervention on their way. That's the way we have always done it.
But all in all, I like my job. It's still fun dealing with the troops although sometimes even they can be rockheads and I consider my TDY trips visiting troops or manufacturers as payment for putting up with the bs. I work with great people in the office although it does help that most of us have known each other for years and years. We were all in the army together and now retired working in the Project Management Office together.
I do. and my job is to meet regulations for a commercial product.
In the time I've been doing this work, I've seen a major change in industry attitude toward those regulations, from very adveserial to more of a partnership. Not to say that we bend over backwards to meet demands, but I do fully see that our cooperation leads to better answers when we question proposals.
IMHO, a lot of the issues and problems you find can be traced to financial issues- extra paperwork is required to make sure that as little money as possible is used to spend money (this can easily trace the development of both the M16 and the Bradley, where the attempt was to get more for the money, which, naturally, backfired), or lack of personnel to attend to the above paperwork- again, to limit government payrolls to save money.
There's buracracy in every major company in the world, and there's major corruption and waste in every company. What you never, ever see is that waste and corruption that's totally legal- but it happens, and I am certain that many of you can relate to that in your own company. But in the government, virtually every penny is argued about, to the point that money is traced by the second to "make sure" it's not being wasted, which, of course, is a waste. We, as a loud society, force that as everyone hates what they deem as waste.
As for the regulations- I was at an interesting talk last night about farming, and this person is very anti government regulation, but he had a great analogy- you have the right to make a fist and swing it around, but you don't have the right to go past my nose with that fist. Now, define the fist and define the nose. In my case, the fist is the air we breath, and how cars impact that, and the nose is your lungs. In other cases, the fist is accounting, and the nose is my investment. You may be allowed to do a lot, but when do you cross the line from risking you to risking others in a way that we deem as unacceptable?
The new problem with that is when regulations are then taken as good ideas and good intentions, and twisted to protect some, and make it impossible for others to compete. That does need to be worked on better.
Anyway, I'm fine with the idea of regulations, but see that we need more equal (and non advesorial) representation when the regulations are written and modified.
My dad told me as a teenager 'never get involved with the government'. Wise words. But I was too stupid to heed them and did get involved with gov't agencies. I once overheard a employee mutter in surprise 'but yeah we did exactly that on another project' in response to his boss saying that something we had asked was not possible.
That means his boss was abusing his position for his own personal ends. I did not say gains, because AFAIK his boss made no money etc from that. But there was another angle which benefitted him personally.
I also got involved with USF&W on another project and their 'rebuttal' to our proposal was a flat out fabrication. But it wasn't possible to prove it; the response was 'well, yeah we made this mistake but we still say no only now it's without a good reason.' Taking it as far as my US Congressman got nowhere, just plain obstinancy.
So the government I pay taxes to support can bite my shiny metal ass.
When I was a chief pilot for air taxi/charter operations, much of my time was spent dealing with the FAA. A few inspectors try to help but most are a serious hindrance. I know several people that have tried to get an air taxi certificate and complete all of the necessary steps. The FAA sits on the paperwork for months and informs them that they will have to reapply as the application period, 1 year, is about to expire. One friend has had to reapply 3 times and is still waiting to hear back. The FAA motto is "We are not happy until you are unhappy".
My government job is the best of both worlds, ran like a private corporation, spend other private companies money to build stuff and maintain it, access to government grants/monies, and no-one expects us to do anything quickly because we are government AND R&D. The pay is lower than private industry, but the benefits make up for it.
Ok, sometimes the bureaucracy for the little things gets old fast (especially health and safety, dear lord, I work in a shop with hand tools and maybe the odd power tool like a grinder or small drill press, they keep pushing for us to be wrapped in bubble wrap) but I basically go "we need this" and my boss signs off on it without looking at the paper work.
I looooooove spending other people's money 
The only thing close to the horror of having the government as a client is have one of the worlds largest multinational conglomerates. Its only bad in that it takes for ever to get paid but thats why we charge them 3x more that any one else we do work for. I still have outstanding invoices from Aug of last year. I know it will get paid just not when.
Whats really fun is that they aren't just a client but a supplier too. Can you imagine if I took as long to pay them as they take to pay me.
Yeah, it's funny how that works. The rule is to bill net 30 but payment is net 90. Or that's what I was told several years ago in management school. The idea is to hold the outgo as long as possible to collect interest, etc.
alfadriver wrote: But in the government, virtually every penny is argued about, to the point that money is traced by the second to "make sure" it's not being wasted, which, of course, is a waste. We, as a loud society, force that as everyone hates what they deem as waste.
As somebody who worked with non-profits on Federal grants, that's the biggest load of horseE36 M3 I've ever read.
Javelin wrote:alfadriver wrote: But in the government, virtually every penny is argued about, to the point that money is traced by the second to "make sure" it's not being wasted, which, of course, is a waste. We, as a loud society, force that as everyone hates what they deem as waste.As somebody who worked with non-profits on Federal grants, that's the biggest load of horseE36 M3 I've ever read.
So we don't argue over every penny that I pay in taxes? Seriously? Half the posts here against the goverment are about spending in areas that are very, very minor.
Or is it that people are not loud in things that they deem as waste?
what part of the statement if horseE36 M3? You think every grant you give out is fully worth while?
In reply to alfadriver:
The part where you said every cent is "traced". That's 100% BS. I worked a grant where we got $1000 a month to do the actual on-the-ground work. That money started out as multi-millions. It started at the United Way and went through SIX other agencies before it finally hit the workers. We calculated that the government spent ~$50,000 on administration, CYA'ing, and multiple layers of mismanagement for every $1,000 of actual work performed.
In reply to Javelin:
How about nitpicked? better word? Just like you did there- you picked apart all of a big grant that left you with $1000. Could you have done the same if you had gotten the money from a Fortune 500 company, that likely has just as much spending that is useless?
Nitpicked? I don't think you understand. The Feds spent $30 million, and the final report claimed United Way had accomplished everything we did with that money. They had no record of the 6 layers in between, and no amount of screaming got them to listen. Government grants can easily be 50x more productive than they are now (or 50x cheaper). We didn't nitpick anything because nobody listened to us.
Javelin wrote: In reply to alfadriver: The part where you said every cent is "traced". That's 100% BS. I worked a grant where we got $1000 a month to do the actual on-the-ground work. That money started out as multi-*millions*. It started at the United Way and went through SIX other agencies before it finally hit the workers. We calculated that the government spent ~$50,000 on administration, CYA'ing, and multiple layers of mismanagement for every $1,000 of actual work performed.
Which, I believe, is exactly the point he was making.
yea... corp is like that too. We get watched for every penny and minute because somebody upstream needs to justify their job to somebody above them.
Penny wise and dollar foolish is a good way to describe it
914Driver wrote:Hungary Bill wrote: Till then, I bite the bullet (no postal puns intended)What do you do? You guys can tromp the Gubbyment all ya want, but it's put bread on my table for 40 years. If you're an Engineer, come on down. we'll pick up your student loans. Hmmmmm.... RIT = ~$25,000/year X 4? Easy math. Dan
The short answer: I maintain C-17's (that are joint owned by 12 countries).
I shouldn't complain too much though, if it was really THAT bad here I'd leave Just a bit more.... "corporate" than I like (or am used to really).
School is paid for though (GI bill, and company benefits)
BTW, nothing is more fun than walking into a room of (presumably) private contractors/employees and saying "Don't worry, I'm with the government, I'm here to help".
Chins usually hit the floor, babies cry, people jump out windows in sheer panic 
Anti-stance wrote:
How I feel right now.
As an employee of a major defense contractor... yes.
We call the gov. "the customer" and "the customer" can be a very fickle beast.
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