Non-gaming oriented simulators?

This is by no means a value judgment on anyone, but personally, I have zero interest in sim racing.  Maybe I'd feel differently if I actually tried it, but I guess I was born in the wrong generation to turn into a gamer.

I am, however, interested in the concept of honing my track skills on a simulator, as this would provide a safe way to try different lines, different corner entry speeds, earlier/later apexes;  basically an infinite list, without consuming tires, brake pads, or fuel.  Are there any simulators available for home use that provide enough realism to actually serve as a useful training tool?  Also, any set-up like this would have to allow me to practice on a simulation of the actual tracks I drive my car on. The challenge has always been simulating the tactile feel of actual track driving (g-forces in all axes, vibrations, etc.).  Does anything like this exist for under $50K?  Whenever I do a search, all I find are gaming-oriented set-ups.  Thanks.

Maybe contact some high dollar racing teams and see what they use. Maybe you could find one that is going out of business or upgrading their simulator. Including full motion into the rig is a big step that I think would exclude all the games that I know of.

Thanks;  that's pretty much what I figured.  This is the closest thing I found to what I'm looking for:

https://www.cxcsimulations.com/purchase/configurator/2/

But I suspect even this is geared toward gaming, as opposed to the kind of training tool I'd be interested in to augment my actual track time.  And its price is well outside the spirit of "grassroots".

Some of the pro racers are using iRacing and similar to learn new tracks, not necessarily for car setup as the modeling is difficult.

I wouldn't pick up a used racing team's simulator

they'll probably retain the "host" pc and/or code... and interfacing with 'commercial' motion systems is... non-trivial.  also, for any kind of 6DOF motion platform... you're going to need a reaction mass to install it on (i.e. lots of concrete)

it sounds like you're more interested in learning the tracks, than experimenting with setup... in which case iRacing/rFactor are probably sufficient from a "fidelity" standpoint... and it looks like there might be some motion bases out there that interface with those

Correct - I'm not interested in using a car simulator for car set-up, but learning new tracks isn't my prime interest, either, although of course it would be handy for that.  I'm just thinking it would be helpful to use between sessions/races as a training tool, as a means to experiment with different lines and techniques in a no-risk environment.  But for this to work, the simulator would have to be a very accurate representation of the experience, including the forces in all axes, that exists on the tracks I drive.  Not sure such a beast exists for under the price of a new GT3.

I would like something like this with steering wheel, pedals , shifter. Seat belts ......

It would be nice if there was some motion in the seat  maybe G force etc ......

Was anything ever made like this that I might find used or build myself out of an old chassis or race car cab ?

Have you tried any of the more modern PC based sim rigs? 3 monitor or Occulus with a seat, full pedals, a good wheel and shifter, with proper Field of View adjustments? Setups like that are good enough for a lot of pro racers to practice with, even without full axis simulations. 

The tracks and cars are pretty dead on accurate these days, weather and track evolution are becoming more realistic every year, and the number of people going from purely sim racing to posting respectable times in real life counterparts keeps growing. 

Nissan has been taking people, even without drivers licenses, from older, arcade style Gran Turismo to driving real cars on real tracks consistently for a few years now through the GT academy as well. 

there's also this option

Cloud9...68 said:

Correct - I'm not interested in using a car simulator for car set-up, but learning new tracks isn't my prime interest, either, although of course it would be handy for that.  I'm just thinking it would be helpful to use between sessions/races as a training tool, as a means to experiment with different lines and techniques in a no-risk environment.  But for this to work, the simulator would have to be a very accurate representation of the experience, including the forces in all axes, that exists on the tracks I drive.  Not sure such a beast exists for under the price of a new GT3.

Here's the thing, you're kind of misunderstanding how motion systems work.  Nothing, not even the uber expensive F1 rigs can do what you stated... what you're effectively describing is an electric go-cart with a 3dof system on it and 1sq mile of concrete.

I went and looked up the specs for the 6DOF motion sims we used on the LevelD Flight Sims I used to work on... and they had a lateral/longitudinal throw around 1.5m and could max out at 7m/s^2.  Now that's with a 14000kg payload... so, you could do more "lateral" g's, but you're limited by the 1.5m movement length.  Now, there's tricks the use to rotate to align the the load to match... er, gravity... but cars tend to change direction laterally too quickly to really do that without introducing the roll acceleration feel... which will feel "off" if you're taking an adverse camber corner.

The thing with any of these is that it's one thing to buy a system, and it's a whole nother thing to keep one calibrated and happy... and that's not even counting the power requirements, and like I mentioned before... the reaction mass.  Even 300kg moving at 7m/s^2 adds up and a normal foundation pad isn't going to be up for it.

google around, it looks like there's 5 or 6 options in your original price range... with varying capabilities.. and even some DIY'ers out there making motion systems.

I know there's also some sims out by VIR.  You might check around COTA... there might be a setup there.  SimRaceway I thought had a setup at Laguna?  Although, I don't even know if SimRaceway is still a thing.  I reckon though, that trying one out first would be...the first step.

Sleepyhead,

Thanks - that's a lot of good information on a topic I obviously don't know much about.  I was actually at Simraceway at Sonoma International Raceway last year, because I want to drive in their F3 race series, hopefully starting next year, depending on finances, and I should have asked them to try out one of their simulators.

You may want to look at Project cars II. It is much more of a sim. In fact for many that is its biggest downfall. Yes you will have to tune some but let’s face it even in the sim world a car that works for you will not necessary work for someone else. It also does a good job of replicating the handling character of the various cars. A 911 should not Handel the same as a Lupo cup car.  

I would argue that you can get the vast majority of training value without needing a proprietary full-motion rig.  Until you get to multi-million dollar setups, you're not going to have a simulation so good that you are truly practicing driving your car.  However for under $2000 you can absolutely be practicing your real life tracks.  And racecraft.

RedGT said:

I would argue that you can get the vast majority of training value without needing a proprietary full-motion rig.  Until you get to multi-million dollar setups, you're not going to have a simulation so good that you are truly practicing driving your car.  However for under $2000 you can absolutely be practicing your real life tracks.  And racecraft.

If you have to buy a nice computer, multiple monitors or VR headset, a rig to put it all on (not sitting at a desk with your office chair), good wheel and pedals................you will NOT be able to do that for under $2k. 

A good computer capable of driving 3 monitors alone is going to be in the $1000-1200 range if you buy new, step up to the latest and greatest video card with a high quality power supply, you'll be north of $1500 just for the computer. Decent 27" monitors are going to be a minimum of $200 each. Mid-level Fanatec for the wheels and pedals and shifter are going to be in the $700-800 range. And that's not even getting into the direct drive stuff which is $1500 for just the base before the wheel rim, pedals, etc. 

And a decent rig is going to be in the $800-1500 range, before you even think about adding motion capability. 

Sure if you scour for a few generations old used stuff, build a rig out of 2x4s in your garage, etc, you might be able to pull it off. 

Fair enough, good point, the dude is asking about things that might be under $50k.  So the more realistic answer is as you say, just go straight to the easy button 'best-of-consumer-grade' stuff, which will cost more like $5k all in.

z31maniac said:

RedGT said:

I would argue that you can get the vast majority of training value without needing a proprietary full-motion rig.  Until you get to multi-million dollar setups, you're not going to have a simulation so good that you are truly practicing driving your car.  However for under $2000 you can absolutely be practicing your real life tracks.  And racecraft.

If you have to buy a nice computer, multiple monitors or VR headset, a rig to put it all on (not sitting at a desk with your office chair), good wheel and pedals................you will NOT be able to do that for under $2k. 

A good computer capable of driving 3 monitors alone is going to be in the $1000-1200 range if you buy new, step up to the latest and greatest video card with a high quality power supply, you'll be north of $1500 just for the computer. Decent 27" monitors are going to be a minimum of $200 each. Mid-level Fanatec for the wheels and pedals and shifter are going to be in the $700-800 range. And that's not even getting into the direct drive stuff which is $1500 for just the base before the wheel rim, pedals, etc. 

And a decent rig is going to be in the $800-1500 range, before you even think about adding motion capability. 

 

Sure if you scour for a few generations old used stuff, build a rig out of 2x4s in your garage, etc, you might be able to pull it off. 

So I am going thorough this right now. 

I have the PC already, it can drive an oculus no issue with a GTX1070TI. 

I need an oculus, a G27 with some modifications. Pedal setup. 80/20 to build the frame and an old race sparco that I have around the shop. Its not going to move but its a heck of a good start. I keeping getting conflicting info on VR vs triple monitors but driving three 43 inch curved monitors is going to be way harder then a single oculus in my book on pure processing power. 

I am guessing with the cost of my PC included and barn hunting the rest I am still looking at 2.5-3K out of pocket. 

I've only driven setups on 3 monitors. I've got a buddy here in town that has a VR setup I need to find time to go try. As that's significantly cheaper than 3 nice monitors. I'd really prefer 3 32" at least 1440p monitors if I don't go VR......that's more than a $1k on just monitors. 

Honestly, I'd pass on the Logitech stuff. Even with mods it's just not even in the same level as the Fanatec stuff. $250 from Fanatec will get you a 3 pedal setup with a load cell for the brake. Then of course you still need another $600 for the wheel base and a wheel.

I've driven multiple Logitech setups, except the new G29, and it was noticeably weaker and less "right" than even the entry level Fanatec wheel I had, and they don't even sell the super cheap wheel anymore. 

RedGT said:

Fair enough, good point, the dude is asking about things that might be under $50k.  So the more realistic answer is as you say, just go straight to the easy button 'best-of-consumer-grade' stuff, which will cost more like $5k all in.

Definitely and you can still get quality motion setup with custom direct drive wheel and all that stuff for well under $50k as well. Depending on how much movement you want, these are well reviewed. 

https://rseatamerica.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=63

I can recommend the fanatec metal pedals with the load cell brake pedal.  They've got inverters so it can hang or be floor mounted.  I've still got the older Porsche wheel that I'd gotten for my XBox 360 and Forza 4, and that's quite decent, but the newer ones are certainly better.

I can't recommend Forza 7 right now, as the force feedback is poor.  Maybe it's because I haven't driven at track speeds (I've autocrossed quite a bit), but the effects of weight transfer might be exaggerated?   Anyways, I often wind up just hotlapping once I get enough money to buy the cars I'm interested in driving, so I can sympathize with the OP's sentiments.

I'm struggling to understand how a rig that doesn't at least attempt to simulate the motions and g-forces that are such an integral part of real-life racing can be very useful at honing your skills as a driver.  There is nothing as critical as sensing the rotation of the car on its axis as a result of the slip at the tires for judging whether you are entering the corner too fast or too slow.  I'm not denying that playing simulation games on a system with a ton of processing power, with a decent wheel and pedals, is very involving and a lot of fun, but I don't see how it can translate very well to the real-world feel of driving a capable car at the limit at the track.

Maybe you just need to try it, or maybe it won't work for you.  Absolutely, the biggest handicap to sitting in a chair trying to drive a car is the lack of butt dyno.  But you have sense of speed from the screen, feedback through the steering wheel, audio of what the tires and engine are doing, and so on.  And if I turn off the audio, or change the field of view, or alter force feedback, or change how the screen conveys that the car has started to slide...I hit a lot of stuff before I learn to lean on the other inputs more, because as you say there's no actual motion.  Adapting to drive with limited input/information, plus logging hundreds of laps on a track for basically free, is very valuable knowledge.  If you want to learn to keep a car on the limit of traction and how that feels, yeah, you're gonna have to spend a LOT of money on a motion rig or just go drive a real car.

There's only two tracks I have driven both in real life and in my E36 M3ty non-motion 'simulator' so far but it's been helpful on both.  The lessons learned from a winter of sim racing also made me a better autocrosser and most notably, my karting times against the same crowd of very fast people have gotten WAY better after 2 seasons of sim racing, in particular adapting to differently set up karts and swapping from car to kart got a lot easier because I have a lot more practice using whatever information is available and making the best of it.

Something sim "gaming" does teach really well is using your eyes.  Because you're only getting feedback through the wheel, pedals and maybe a buttkicker it causes you to look further ahead.  I probably advanced more on that front through a few hours of sim time vs wheel time on track.  Also have you tried Pcars2 or iracing with a modern sim wheel?  It's able to provide a decent amount of feedback.

Outside of the "grassroots" aspect the full motion rigs paired with "games" are as good as you're going to get honestly I'm not sure it is possible to distinguish between "simulation" and "game" as it really comes down to how you define either.   https://www.simcraft.com/  has a range of motion simulators and can give you a good description of the differences between them.

I think the eyes thing needs more expansion... it would take some digging up that I'm not willing to do right now... but off-hand, it's "well known" that your eyes have a refresh rate of 60Hz.  I'm pretty sure the inner-ear, and the 'seat of the pants' sensation is closer to 10-20Hz... but, like I said... I'd have to go digging into ICAO for FAA docs to track down motion response requirements.

So, if you can train your eyes to pick up on the angular acceleration change of a slide, you can catch slides faster... or, well, "see" them earlier.  Plus, there's a lot of work needed to get your eyes sucking in all the information you have to process while on-track, while at the same time driving various appendages to "do things the right way at the right time".

When was the last time you thought about your gait, or breathing?  There's been a large amount of research lately about how humans "can't do two things at once"... which the more I thought about it, felt off to me.  I think the reality is that we can't do more than one thing "outside of a thing that we can do subconsciously" at one time.  So, if you get enough practice, and can offload some of the vehicle dynamics processing into your subconscious, then you'll be better able to get into a state where you're "one step ahead of the car"

And the only way to do that is practice, lots and lots and lots of practice, specifically determined and directed practice.  You can get that practice without having motion.

When it gets easy, do as RedGT says, and change something.  Then do it again until it gets easy, and then change another thing.  Keep doing that until the time it takes to adjust to the change is less than 10mins.

And, when you can, get out and drive.  Because the real world is more complex, unstable, and random than any simulation.

Cloud9...68 said:

I'm struggling to understand how a rig that doesn't at least attempt to simulate the motions and g-forces that are such an integral part of real-life racing can be very useful at honing your skills as a driver.  There is nothing as critical as sensing the rotation of the car on its axis as a result of the slip at the tires for judging whether you are entering the corner too fast or too slow.  I'm not denying that playing simulation games on a system with a ton of processing power, with a decent wheel and pedals, is very involving and a lot of fun, but I don't see how it can translate very well to the real-world feel of driving a capable car at the limit at the track.

Give it a try, you'll be surprised.

The brain fills in the blanks. I have been running project cars for a while now. I run it on a 65 inch commercial grade plasma TV. I have a full racing seat and a G29 wheel and peddles. This is good enough for my brain to fill in the blanks. I can feel the “car” loosing grip. I can tell if it is in the front or rear. I can feel wheel spin. 

It is not the real thing. I will never say it is but it is extremely engaging and I feel it definitely helps my driving skills. 

The brain is a very interesting thing. It fills in the blanks way more than most people realizes.  My setup is good enough to allow my brain to add in allot more than what is really there. 

I'm a large fan of sim racing so I might be biased.   There is value found in a sim setup even without motion rigs.   The makers of racing sims have had a long time working on ways to get around the lack of butt feel and your body is quite an amazing thing at adaptation.   When I spin in a good sim I know by feel exactly what went wrong, the surfaces are detailed enough to where I can pinpoint what tire hit that crappy track patch with too much throttle or brake or steering angle applied causing the issue.   The experience isn't just about spinning or not spinning they are detailed enough that you can pick up on very small track and vehicle aspects that allow you to fine tune how you go through a lap for the best times.  What curbs are brutal, what section of the track to avoid.   In longer races on iRacing things like the track rubbering in and how your car changes with fuel are very important considerations.   

Not only can your body adapt to the different inputs but the smart folks who make racing sims understand how to filter or accentuate what they are outputting to make those forces known.  Improvements in visual information, audio fidelity, and control schemes has brought us to the point that pro drivers find value in the current top of the market consumer sims.   I am especially fond of iRacing, Assetto Corsa, and Dirt Rally for the quality of the tracks, the quality of the sim physics, and the quality of the force feedback.  In iRacing I have spent time next to pro drivers practicing and racing, they are there partially because they find the experience enjoyable, but also because it provides value to them.  If the feel were too far off they would find the experience unacceptable.   Here's a screenshot of a practice session I had in the Ferrari GTE car on iRacing.   Notice the name on top, that is the real Rubens, and I had the chance to talk shop with him about the car.