harley and the special olympicss

noticed recently, while talking about bikes harleys are like the special olympics of performance . After saying a performance number be it HP, torque or quarter mile, I have to make note that it is for a harley or it sounds not impressive.No such case for Buell ?

I think HD is the ultimate example of resting on one's laurels. They were the fastest things going back in the day, and they just got eclipsed by everyone else. Even the V-Rod's specs dont sound like anything special when compared to a Japanese bike.

I'm under the impression Ducati is having the same thing happen. They did their whole desmondromics thing, but didn't really push after valvesprings caught up.

Of course, I don't know too much when it comes to bikes. Just got my permit, and I'm doing my MSC this coming weekend.

In reply to ReverendDexter:

"Ducati is having the same thing happen" ...Eh No.

Take a spin on a Testastretta engined bike or if you're lucky enough a Desmosedici and you'll see they are resting on nothing. No comparison to Harley's tractor engined boats.

Gonzo_Bmod wrote: In reply to ReverendDexter: "Ducati is having the same thing happen" ...Eh No. Take a spin on a Testastretta engined bike or if you're lucky enough a Desmosedici and you'll see they are resting on nothing. No comparison to Harley's tractor engined boats.

It'll be a bit before I'm comfortable jumping on a Duc, lol. But that's good to know.

Harley is different. They're not building bikes, they're building a brand - a task at which they've had incredible success for more than the past decade. But, their market is drying up as boomers get too old to ride, so they're going to have to make some big changes if they want to continue their dominance. I predict that their days as king of the hill are numbered, but I've been surprised before.

harley makes a great cruising bike ,kind of a lazy mans bike , or you dress it up to show your friends.

alex wrote: Harley is different. They're not building bikes, they're building a brand - a task at which they've had incredible success for more than the past decade. But, their market is drying up as boomers get too old to ride, so they're going to have to make some big changes if they want to continue their dominance. I predict that their days as king of the hill are numbered, but I've been surprised before.

Yeah, I don't think killing off Buell was the best idea. Weren't they the only American sport bike manufacturer? Now if you want an American bike, you're buying a cruiser.

ReverendDexter wrote: I think HD is the ultimate example of resting on one's laurels. They were the fastest things going back in the day, and they just got eclipsed by everyone else. Even the V-Rod's specs dont sound like anything special when compared to a Japanese bike.

Personally, I think criticizing a Harley for not being blazingly fast is like criticizing a Lexus for being heavy and having wallowy handling. That's not what they were built for. Sure, this is the GRM board, so people will do this anyway.

Harley is more along the lines of what you'd get if somebody decided they were going to build new '57 Chevies. Only with an iron LSx under the hood and modern comfort and convenience features. Harley's main goal is to make a bike that looks like an older machine, with enough comfort for long trips and a pretty good level of fit and finish. Speed is a secondary concern at best and a non-concern most of the time for Harley.

ReverendDexter wrote:

alex wrote: Harley is different. They're not building bikes, they're building a brand - a task at which they've had incredible success for more than the past decade. But, their market is drying up as boomers get too old to ride, so they're going to have to make some big changes if they want to continue their dominance. I predict that their days as king of the hill are numbered, but I've been surprised before.

Yeah, I don't think killing off Buell was the best idea. Weren't they the only American sport bike manufacturer? Now if you want an American bike, you're buying a cruiser.

I agree. It does not speak well for their capacity to adapt to change. Seems more like they're clamoring for money.

MadScientistMatt wrote: Harley is more along the lines of what you'd get if somebody decided they were going to build new '57 Chevies.

Interesting comparison. I think I would have to add that it would be a new 57 Chevy with a fuel injected flat head (!) V8 that is programed with a rough idle ( to sound like a big cam) and to sputter and backfire when decelerating (like a very old carbed car). And of course it would cost $75,000.

I wonder if anyone would buy one?

Out of the factory my buell was tuned to run lean for emissions so I think the backfire on deceleration has to due with government mandates if anything.

I don't think half the people who go on to criticize harleys have ever rode on one. Something about riding one puts a smile on your face. When I got to steal my mom's sportster 1200 for a couple weeks I had more people telling me they wished they had a harley than you could believe. I even got to ride my uncles 1967 shovelhead with I think an 80inch engine on it, that thing rattled the head and shook my brains, but was still fun especially with the reverse order shifting of one up 4 down.

benzbaron, you're being generous at 50%, I bet it's closer to 80% of the people that bag on H-Ds haven't ridden one...or at least haven't ridden one that was made within the last few years. H-Ds primary goal in life isn't about being fast...but don't kid yourself, nearly every bike they make is still faster than your car in a straight line and in the twisties. H-Ds definitely cost a lot more than the typical metric bike, but the build quality is so much better that they are hardly comparable. The attention to detail in the metalwork, finishes, leather, controls, etc. far surpasses others. Most of the folks on this forum probably don't give a damn about the details, but that's not to say nobody cares as H-D sells a ton of bikes and recognize nobody does it better than H-D. I've never owned an H-D, but I've ridden them a lot, and I can most certainly appreciate tossing my girlfriend into the back of an Ultra, loading up the saddlebags, and hitting the open road. They make fantastic cruisers, IMO the best.

For those that think H-D is stuck in the past technology-wise, you have NO idea what it takes to engineer a bike to meet modern regulations (emissions, sound, etc.) while still meeting customer expectations (styling, sound, performance, etc.). H-D has a lot of fancy technology hidden in their bikes, they do a great job of hiding that stuff to keep the bike looking clean. They don't want you to know the turn signals are highly intelligent when you look at the bike, they just want you to know you push a button and the lights come on and then turn off automatically. They don't want you to show your friends the fancy ion sensing ignition, instead you can point out that clean looking engine (that lacks a knock sensor but still doesn't knock). They don't have a throttle sensor and motor hanging off the bike, they hide it so your handlebars look cleaner than any mass produced bike out there and you have no idea why at first glance. Etc. etc. etc.

Bryce

So... if a harley can out run my car in a straight line and the twisties.... how come Ihave time to watch them dragging pegs and getting farther and farther behind me in the twisties? True story. Pair of Sportsers tried to hangwith the Swift up a quiet stretch of small state road near me. It's my "proving grounds" and is always fun. I'm coming home from visiting the folks and a pair of noisemakers come up behind me and ride my butt for a few miles. We hit the first hard 90* left hander that starts a 3 mile series of fun and I opened the swift up. I looked back a few times to see the lead bike trying hard to keep up. His buddy wasn't even in sight. The went from 3 feet off my bumper to over a half mile back. I was on my too tall streetable tires that have no grip.

Look, I've ridden Harleys. I do not like to ride them. They're too heavy, they don't feel agile enough for me and lack the oomph in a straight line. Add in the extra cost for maintenance, costly maintenance, ad repairs that I've never had to do on my Honda and I think I'll stick with "the Japs". In fact, I'd love to get my hands on a very lightly used CB919 for pennies. But that is a pipe dream.

Buell's were the only harley's I would have considered, and now that those are gone, well there's nothing left.

Just because Joe Sportster couldn't keep up with you in the twisties doesn't mean the bike can't. I've seen professional riders ride those bikes faster than I ever imagined possible...you just have to know how to ride. Kind of like how you in your Swift and Joe Metro in a Geo on the same road won't yield the same results.

In regards to extra cost for maintenance (and costly maintenance???), I have no idea where you're coming with that. Care to explain? Call your friendly Honda dealer and H-D dealer and ask how much they charge for a valve adjustment (or 10k mile service, or similar). I had a 919, sold it and got a Buell...the Buell was a better bike in nearly every regard.

Bryce

Can't get a Buell, which is why I'd like the 919. And my hondas use hla's, no adjustments. Been 17 years, it's been through 4 sets of tires, 5 batteries and one carb adjust. Still runs as good as new. Change the oil every spring.

Find me a Harley that can last that long without serious money. Plenty of friends have been jealous over the years because of what I DON'T have to spend.

Nashco wrote: H-Ds primary goal in life isn't about being fast...but don't kid yourself, nearly every bike they make is still faster than your car in a straight line and in the twisties.

Faster in a straight line, yes, but not in the twisties. That's just a fact of how motorcycles work. However, I agree that Harley-Davidsons are not designed to be sport bikes, so it's kind of a silly argument - it doesn't make them better or worse, it just makes them different.

Bobzilla wrote: Can't get a Buell, which is why I'd like the 919. And my hondas use hla's, no adjustments. Been 17 years, it's been through 4 sets of tires, 5 batteries and one carb adjust. Still runs as good as new. Change the oil every spring. Find me a Harley that can last that long without serious money. Plenty of friends have been jealous over the years because of what I DON'T have to spend.

Why can't you get a Buell but you can get a 919?

I have worked with several guys that had over 100k on their H-Ds with the only maintenance being regular service items (tires, fluids, an occassional belt, etc.). With a sample size of one/few it's tough NOT to end up in a pissing contest; generally speaking, modern H-Ds are pretty damn robust. Since you've never owned a H-D, how can you be so sure you wouldn't have the same experience with a new H-D as you did with your old Honda? Also, how can you be so sure your old Honda compares to a new Honda? I only wish a 2009 Civic was anything near as great as a '92 Civic. Things change Bob...and I'm going out on a limb and guessing that you haven't ridden a Harley that was made in the last few years....am I wrong?

Bryce

Nope. Seriously, I have no desire to. With what I have wrapped up in my bike from the last 10 years, it wouldn't even be a down payment on a newer harley. Why?

Bobzilla wrote: Nope. Seriously, I have no desire to. With what I have wrapped up in my bike from the last 10 years, it wouldn't even be a down payment on a newer harley. Why?

Well, you made this comment today:

Bobzilla wrote: Look, I've ridden Harleys. I do not like to ride them. They're too heavy, they don't feel agile enough for me and lack the oomph in a straight line. Add in the extra cost for maintenance, costly maintenance, ad repairs that I've never had to do on my Honda and I think I'll stick with "the Japs".

...but it turns out this comment is based on old (very old?) bikes. If you were to go on about how a Chevy Malibu is a piece of crap, it would obviously be important to point out what era of Malibu you're talking about. Some Malibus are fantastic cars, some are huge pieces of donkey poo. Same goes for your typical H-D. Not all Sportsters or Dynas or Road Kings are created equal.

I guess I came into this conversation thinking of new bikes, as nobody would argue an AMF produced bike was the best cruiser ever. Perhaps I was the only one thinking new bikes...? I assumed bagging on the company and their products would be based on what the company has produced in recent history.

Test drives are free Bob. At the very least, you would be more informed...and that's a pretty nice price to not be ignorant.

Bryce

My point is at the price point these things sell at, I could replace my entire fleet of cars. I find it ludicrous to spend $15-22k for a MOTORCYLCE. So, nope. Not likely to go buy one, ever. If you do, more power to you. It's not in my budget, and will never BE in my budget.

I can only compare similar pricepoints which puts them in the older crappy bikes. Which, when looked at in that light make my points very valid. I'd appreciate you not just calling me an ignorant ass because I don't drink the HD koolaid. there's not need for name calling when someone shares a different opnion than yours. If I did that every time someone disagreed about my Hyundais I wouldn't have time to say anything else.

Saying you're ignorant is not name calling, is it? I never said you were an ignorant ass, just ignorant. I mean, if you haven't been exposed to a new H-D, isn't that being ignorant to what their current products offer? Ignorant is no more a "bad word" than uninformed. For example, if somebody said H-Ds cost $15-22k, that would show their ignorance on the subject, as 2010 H-D MSRPs range from $7k-$36k.

When people talk about Hyundais being huge piles of crap and you defend them, do you tell them to go test drive a 12 year old Hyundai or a new one? If they haven't driven one in 7 years, would you suggest they see the latest from Hyundai before giving further judgement? Are you drinking the Hyundai koolaid if you try to open their mind a bit about Hyundais?

Bryce

7 Year old Hyundais are still good. I have an 8 year old and a 10 year old.

Seriously, they don't offer what I want. That's no different than me saying I don't want a LExus because they offer nothing I want. How is that being "ignorant"? I have seen the price tags. I have seen the product. It does not interest me. That is not ignorance, that is preference.

A Harley is NOT not faster than an average car in the twisties. That is not necessarily a knock on the Harley though. Superbikes aren't faster than race cars either. Look at laptimes from really ridiculous bikes on a road course and then look at lap times from some cars...

Professional road racers on GSXR-1000Rs do about a 1:13.xx around Summit Point to qualify on pole. Amateurs in a Formula Atlantic Ralt R4 (less power, more weight) are carving around in 1:09:xx. A shifter kart with the same engine and around the same weight is just going to murder the bike.

Turns out... 4 sticky patches > 2 sticky patches by no small margin unless the road is straight.

Nashco wrote: H-Ds primary goal in life isn't about being fast...but don't kid yourself, nearly every bike they make is still faster than your car in a straight line and in the twisties.

Note that I didn't say "anything with four wheels" but that I said YOUR CAR. I'm making a gamble that none of you guys harping on Harleys are cruising around in an Exige on the weekends looking to eat up a Springer Softail in the hills. Furthermore, it's not very often you see a shifter kart or a Formula Atlantic cruising up the PCH or across Deal's Gap. I must be going on the wrong days.

Bob, you're all over the place...you started off going on about the bikes being heavy, poor handling, and too expensive to maintain. Now you're just saying they cost too much to purchase so they don't interest you. Am I the one drinking the koolaid in thinking H-D has great cruisers when I've done back-to-back comparisons? I never said H-D made cheap bikes.

Bryce

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Turns out... 4 sticky patches > 2 sticky patches by no small margin unless the road is straight.

How much of it also has to do with the leaning a bike has to do around a corner? A car is inherently already leaned over as far as it can be going into a corner either direction, and the weight shifting to the outside would act much the same as the COG dynamically lowering relative to the lateral acceleration.

Or at least that's how I look at it.