stroker said:I have a mental image of dueling XJ6's at the Challenge, one with a SBC and the other with a Jag 6.
it could happen...
I'd love to see that also. My money is on the SBC even if my heart is with the Jag engine.
stroker said:I have a mental image of dueling XJ6's at the Challenge, one with a SBC and the other with a Jag 6.
it could happen...
I'd love to see that also. My money is on the SBC even if my heart is with the Jag engine.
dculberson said:frenchyd said:Let me clarify what I believe you are saying. Please correct me if I have it wrong.
No Jaguar V12 can ever get to a sub 11 second quarter mile? Yet somehow a Chevy V8 can make a 4600 pound Jaguar do it in less than 11 seconds on a Challenge budget.
The U tube video showing a stock cheap thrashed XJS V12 beating new Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette etc. in a drag race with nothing more than a 150 hp shot of nitrous.
The question is not whether it can be done. It is whether it can be done on a challenge budget. The Nelsons have shown time and time again that they can. Where's the Jaguar powered $2000 sub-11 drag racer? I hear a lot of "chevy bad" from you but no proof, when proof has been provided that it's good, 14 times over.
The Chevy powered Jag posted earlier starts at $475. A few hundred more bucks and it would be putting out 300+hp. A few dozen hours with weight removal and it would be much lighter. Good formula.
You've been talking about your MGuar for going on 10 years now. A long dream, we all have those, but don't diss other people's dreams because you think yours is so great.
Please be accurate, I have never said Chevy Bad. I’ve owned, sold, and raced Chevies all my life. I own one now in my cruiser.
But for every 190 horsepower 350 Chevy out there there is another 305/ 307/ 262 etc with a deep ridge and lobes worn off the cam. Yes they could be used to make 300 horsepower but on a Challenge budget?
Granted there are some fantastic deals on old race motors removed and updated with newer LS motors and good luck to those who find them. I have no quarrel with them. Just like I’ve never won the lottery I wouldn’t expect to find one of those. But well done if someone does.
I dont think you realize just just how much you already know about Jaguar engines.
Just like a Chevy you need three things to have a running Jaguar.
Fuel
spark
timing.
Spark is easy. Pull a plug wire. stick a spark plug in and lay it on some metal. Turn it on and crank it over. If you see a healthy spark you are 1/3 of the way to a running engine.
Fuel, the easy way is squirt some ether into the intake if it starts popping you know all you have to do is trace the fuel system
timing? Well just like a Chevy put it up on top dead center #1 and see where the distributor is pointing to.
Cam timing is easier since the cam is on top not buried behind the water pump.
Yes there are 12 instead of eight but they make it easier by splitting it into 2. A and B
The rest is the same as a V8 with the exception of overhead cams. Since overhead cams are no longer rare, they shouldn’t be too complicated. But good news no pushrods or rocker arms.
Indy-Guy said:In reply to stroker :
If you want Jag, V8 Rumble, and a Good showing at the challenge, buy the car linked below (for $1500), add hood & fender and cut off exhaust.
It has a Super Charged V8 with factory 370hp and was faster than a base C5 when they were both new.
Seller says it runs. It has taken everything I can muster to Not go buy it already. (see post above about not needing another project)
I've been texting the seller today. Someone save me from myself and go buy this before I have a chance to go drag it home.
Stampie said:stroker said:I have a mental image of dueling XJ6's at the Challenge, one with a SBC and the other with a Jag 6.
it could happen...
I'd love to see that also. My money is on the SBC even if my heart is with the Jag engine.
The battle of the big heavies? Why not add a V12? It’s 30 pounds lighter than the six. ( big silly grin)
Actually wouldn’t that make a good sub class? Big Mercedes, big Jaguar, big BMW, Big Cadillac, big Lincoln, etc?
Double points in the concours de elegance.
stroker said:I have a mental image of dueling XJ6's at the Challenge, one with a SBC and the other with a Jag 6.
it could happen...
That I would love to see!!
I'm betting on the SBC, and a few thousand words spilled online about why it wasn't fair.. 
frenchyd said:But for every 190 horsepower 350 Chevy out there there is another 305/ 307/ 262 etc with a deep ridge and lobes worn off the cam. Yes they could be used to make 300 horsepower but on a Challenge budget?
YES! As has been said, that's been done over and over again and shown to be a winning formula for power at the Challenge. Yet you constantly say it can't be done, or 350s only put out 190hp, or the like.
I have nothing bad to say about the Jaguar engine, I've road raced an XJ6 and loved it, but I have my doubts about it as the shoe-in for a truly fast budget built you seem to think it is. The only way to prove otherwise is to do it. More words won't prove it.
In reply to frenchyd :
Dude- look at the last 14 years of results. The evidence is pretty clear that making north of 350hp with a GM v8 on a challenge budget is not only possible, but has been done many times. I don't understand why you can't see that.
On the other hand, nobody has brought a Jag to a challenge, in any form. So the question whether it's capable on a challenge budget or not is still quite open.
But there's no reason do doubt if a GM engine can do it- it's been done. There's no debate to that tiny fact. Given that the fast drag time in 2017 was under 10 seconds, I would suggest that well north of 400hp is possible with a GM on a Challenge budget.
So if you really think a Jag of any form can do it, bring it. Let alone it theoretically being easier.
frenchyd said:Stampie said:stroker said:I have a mental image of dueling XJ6's at the Challenge, one with a SBC and the other with a Jag 6.
it could happen...
I'd love to see that also. My money is on the SBC even if my heart is with the Jag engine.
The battle of the big heavies? Why not add a V12? It’s 30 pounds lighter than the six. ( big silly grin)
Actually wouldn’t that make a good sub class? Big Mercedes, big Jaguar, big BMW, Big Cadillac, big Lincoln, etc?
Double points in the concours de elegance.
That class already exists and has been run a few times. You should look over the results someday.
Soooooooo..... another thread Frenchy'd out.
Has the ever been a v12 in the Challenge?
Indy-Guy said:Indy-Guy said:In reply to stroker :
If you want Jag, V8 Rumble, and a Good showing at the challenge, buy the car linked below (for $1500), add hood & fender and cut off exhaust.
It has a Super Charged V8 with factory 370hp and was faster than a base C5 when they were both new.
Seller says it runs. It has taken everything I can muster to Not go buy it already. (see post above about not needing another project)
I've been texting the seller today. Someone save me from myself and go buy this before I have a chance to go drag it home.
Def lowball him on that price. And if you happen to part the rest of it out, LET ME KNOW!
Robbie said:So the 81+ 5.3 v12 isn't a great starting point it sounds like? Is the block any better than the early one? Or is it better to just wait to find an earlier v12 to avoid having to rebuild the thing with different pistons and heads?
What is your goal?
There are advantages to early engines and later engines. Once nice thing about complex engines is how many in really great shape are sitting with one minor problem to be sorted out.
Nearly any Jaguar V 12 will have smooth ridge free bores. The camshafts are pretty much all the same. Crank shafts are pretty interchangeable, so are rods. But try to keep the whole assembly together. Jaguar batch built engines to reduce rejects and thus costs. Pistons vary depending on years and specifications.
There are basically 2 style heads & both foundries made both style heads so if you are building a cost no object engine I’ll show you what founders markings to look for.
If on the other hand you just want a lot of power as cheaply as possible. I’ll walk you through that too. If you have a starting point let’s go from there.
Crower and Isky both regrind the camshaft. If you aren’t hauling around a 4600 pound car there is power available there the heads, intake etc flow well enough so porting isn’t absolutely needed. Stay out of the exhaust ports. They already flow too well. ( over 92% of intake when 80% is considered right )
In reply to Robbie :
I reread what I wrote and still didn’t answer your rather straight forward question well.
From 1971- early 1978 Jag used the Borgwarner Transmission. Later 1978 they switched to the GM Turbo 400 transmission Or the overdrive version until end of production. The way you tell visually is the Borg Warner has smaller locating dowels than the GM Turbo 400 like 1/2 to 3/4 inch or whatever.
What is great about that switch is the locating dowels are in the same spot as Chevy so a Chevy bell housing/ scatter shield can be used. All that is required is an adapter made using the Jag bolt pattern adapted to the Chevy bolt pattern. That’s just an afternoons work using a band saw or even a jig saw and transferring holes. No careful exact measuring made. Just line it up and drill the holes.
You can easily switch rods and pistons from earlier block to later block. Same with heads.
Is that closer to what you need?
alfadriver said:In reply to frenchyd :
Dude- look at the last 14 years of results. The evidence is pretty clear that making north of 350hp with a GM v8 on a challenge budget is not only possible, but has been done many times. I don't understand why you can't see that.
On the other hand, nobody has brought a Jag to a challenge, in any form. So the question whether it's capable on a challenge budget or not is still quite open.
But there's no reason do doubt if a GM engine can do it- it's been done. There's no debate to that tiny fact. Given that the fast drag time in 2017 was under 10 seconds, I would suggest that well north of 400hp is possible with a GM on a Challenge budget.
So if you really think a Jag of any form can do it, bring it. Let alone it theoretically being easier.
I’m not arguing that it can be done. I’m sure it’s possible to make even more if you happen upon the right stuff at the right time. After all chevy small blocks are like belly buttons, everybodies got one.
If that’s your argument, you win.
Now will you grant me that a V12 can also make power? And cheaply?
In reply to frenchyd :
Your V12 is still theoretical. The V8 has shown is truth in the Challenge results over the las 14 years.
Until someone actually does it, your engine will remain theoretical.
BTW, it's been pointed out by a few that you have been arguing that there's a power limit on the GM engine, at challenge costs. That's been proven wrong a long, long time ago- way before you started posting here.
Tell you what, if you beat my time from 15 years ago, I will give you credit- that's just 14.12 in the drag race. Far from a tough challenge, relative to the pointy end of the results. Bear in mind, my car got FTD at the autocross part, so that would be a bonus challenge for your jag. I'll buy you an Ale if you beat my old time.
Anyway, for now, a Chevy v8 in any Jag will do great- as it's been illustrated before.
alfadriver said:In reply to frenchyd :
Dude- look at the last 14 years of results. The evidence is pretty clear that making north of 350hp with a GM v8 on a challenge budget is not only possible, but has been done many times. I don't understand why you can't see that.
On the other hand, nobody has brought a Jag to a challenge, in any form. So the question whether it's capable on a challenge budget or not is still quite open.
But there's no reason do doubt if a GM engine can do it- it's been done. There's no debate to that tiny fact. Given that the fast drag time in 2017 was under 10 seconds, I would suggest that well north of 400hp is possible with a GM on a Challenge budget.
So if you really think a Jag of any form can do it, bring it. Let alone it theoretically being easier.
Some people are excited by drag racing. I’m not. I like to go wheel to wheel racing and that’s not what the challenge is about.
But I’ll meet you half way. Bring your Challenge budget Chevy powered car up to Elkhart Lake. Then we’ll have a nice little race and then I’ll haul my Challenge budget Jaguar powered car down there and you can demonstrate on your turf?
In reply to frenchyd :
I'm a racer, too, which is why I built an Alfa Spider Challenge car 17 years ago. Of which just did a simple 14.12 1/4 on the way to FTD at the autocross in 2004.
Build your Challenge Jag, and then we will talk.
None the less, it still stands that the GM engine in a Jag will likely work really, really well, since a GM engine has powered winners in the past. Whereas the Jag engine has never been done. So build it. Walk your talk for once.
BTW, we are talking about the GRM challenge, not some road race. That's what this whole board is about. Build your Jag challenge car.
Done with this thread- I have nothing to add as an Alfa person to a Jag. Even one that was manufactured by Ford while I have been working there.
yupididit said:Soooooooo..... another thread Frenchy'd out.
Has the ever been a v12 in the Challenge?
Yes. Robbie brought one in a 7 series BMW for the aristocrat class. But as far as I know, never a Jag V12.
yupididit said:.......Def lowball him on that price. And if you happen to part the rest of it out, LET ME KNOW!
How low? I actually thought the $1500 asking price was a pretty good deal. From my vantage point, the car is only $400 worth of hood, fender, and headlights away from being a 370hp rocket. (of course this year jag V8 will need the timing chain guides done at some point)
In reply to Indy-Guy :
If you pay a dollar over $1000 you should turn in your GRM card. I'd start at $750 and do the walk away move at $800. Not worth the headache past that.
dculberson said:A Chevy 350 made 190hp due to smog controls. I doubt they moved a fully smogged motor into a Jag. 300hp is easy peasy, more is just a small check away.
"Smog controls" don't kill power. Crappy flowing ports, and small camshafts, and low compressiom kill power.
LS motors are way cleaner than any SBC could ever hope to be and they make more power, because they have good ports (so they can make lots power with mild cams) and they have good chambers (so they can have lots compression without knocking or making tons of NOx).
frenchyd said:
- I In reply to alfadriver :
I suspect you are wrong.
First 370 horsepower gross was all Chevy got out of their very racy LT1 engine.
As-rated. In real life, they were making closer to 400-450hp, but they "derated" them for various reasons. Cheaper insurance, and fewer warranty claims. The '67-69 DZ302 and '70 LT-1 (a stroked DZ302, after the SCCA allowed destroking engines to meet the 5 liter displacement max for racing) were homologation specials They didn't WANT anybody but racers to buy them, because they didn't want John Q. Public to rack up warranty claims, or complain about fouling plugs all the time because the engine barely ran below 4000 rpm. So they rated them at a lower power than the (cheaper) big-block engines, to direct the casual schlub in that direction.
The "290hp" Boss 302 made a real world 450hp, too. "Gross" horsepower meant "this is a number we invented for reasons", and had nothing to do with actual output.
Indy-Guy said:yupididit said:Soooooooo..... another thread Frenchy'd out.
Has the ever been a v12 in the Challenge?
Yes. Robbie brought one in a 7 series BMW for the aristocrat class. But as far as I know, never a Jag V12.
Yeah, I would also like to be the first to bring a jag v12 and Merc v12 to really round out as the v12 challenge guy, but it's not in my cards for a few years.
I will have you guys know that the 7 was the highest placing BMW that year, and was also the fastest autox BMW (beating out an e30, e46, and e36 m3 automatic - admittedly I don't think the e30 was running quite right). I don't remember if the e36 m3 had me in the drags or not.
Indy, If you buy that xjr and want to repair it let me know. There is a 98 xj8 on my local cl that needs timing chain work (but still runs and drives) that I was considering buying to try a dculberson style part out.
In reply to Knurled. :
Gross also goes the other way, where a car from 1975 is rated in hopes hp/ dreams tq.
Robbie said:....
Indy, If you buy that xjr and want to repair it let me know. There is a 98 xj8 on my local cl that needs timing chain work (but still runs and drives) that I was considering buying to try a dculberson style part out.
If you pass on that '98 that needs chain work let me know and post (or text me) the info. I have this itch that it seems only an XJR will satisfy.
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