Acura 3.2 V6 Longitudinal engine/trans in a Bug. What do you think?

I am wondering if anyone has explored using a  2nd gen Acura Legend drivetrain in an air cooled VW. I am specifically thinking about this for a Super Beetle 1303. This trans is basically a 2 piece design, with the differential sitting next to the oil pan.

The CVs sit almost exactly in the middle of the engine itself. It is 10" to the harmonic balancer pulley and 11" to the bellhousing mounting surface. My measurements show I could keep the bug suspension (in my case I have 944 aluminum trailing arms waiting for install. I would have to do some cutting into the luggage tray area and make an access panel to service the front of the engine, but I think I could even keep the rear seat and not cut into the pan at all. I might even be able to keep most or all of the engine frame horns. Obviously I would have to make a new rear sub frame to support everything. I think I could even fit it in with a stock apron, although I'd probably make it removable for the install process.

I have done several swaps in my life. My DD is an Isuzu pickup powered by an LS1, and that is pretty mild compared to others I've done, and yes, I know anything will work if you throw enough time and money at it.

I've wondered why this drivetrain is so unloved in the custom world. The better engine makes 230hp and you can even get a 6 speed manual. And you can find them for chump change at Pick n Pull. And they go 250K+ miles. Apparently

Anyone have a Cord roller? 

That comment made my week! 

Wow... I was unfamiliar with this engine/trans, and that layout is remarkable... Thanks!

I came in here hoping for info and inspiration about my long-term dream of a mid-engined Fastback on a custom chassis; I'm not sure this is the engine for that, but it's awesome.

JamesMcD said:

Anyone have a Cord roller? 

I take this back. The drive is not far enough forward of the engine.

Ransom said:

Wow... I was unfamiliar with this engine/trans, and that layout is remarkable... Thanks!

I came in here hoping for info and inspiration about my long-term dream of a mid-engined Fastback on a custom chassis; I'm not sure this is the engine for that, but it's awesome.

I think on a Super Beetle the front of the engine would be just behind the back seat, and the back of the trans would just barely fit under the apron. How do fastback proportions compare to Super Beetle proportions?

If you've ever been under a Legend or 1st gen 3.5 RL you will wonder what the hell it wrong with Honda. They were less than 3 feet from having the perfect RWD sedan. Then they chickened out and ran the power back to the front wheels. 

In reply to carwhisperer :

I'd have to look up cutaway side views, but I believe the Fastback has more rear overhang, but probably a very similar back seat location. Hrm, a quick google suggests that the fastback might have more room around the overhang (more room than the beetle apron), but the strict overhang length is very similar to the beetle.

I think its an even better idea than the 4 cyl you proposed. Do it do it do it do it do it. Please make this a thing.

How do you get then final drive to run backwards?  (I'm assuming you'll reverse the orientation in the VW -- trans forward -- from it's original in the Honda -- trans backwards.)  Is there enough room to flip the differential inside the case?

efahl said:

How do you get then final drive to run backwards?  (I'm assuming you'll reverse the orientation in the VW -- trans forward -- from it's original in the Honda -- trans backwards.)  Is there enough room to flip the differential inside the case?

I plan to run the drivetrain in it's intended direction, albeit at the back of the car, not the front. Flipping the dif, and flipping the whole drivetrain around, would make it so that the accessories would be accessible under the engine cover. However, the trans would protrude into the rear seat area. It is 10 inches from the axles to the front pulleys, and 11" from the axles to the bellhousing. Leaving it as built makes it so that I have to access the front of the engine through the interior. I'm not crazy about this, but I think it makes the most sense.

Furthermore, I think flipping the dif would be quite DIFficult, haha. It would protrude further into the oil pan and it would be raised at least 2 inches, maybe 3, as it would need to be moved above the pinion instead of below. I think the clearance between the crank and the drive shaft is already minimal. To make that feasible I think you would need to move the dif all the way out in front of the engine or add CV joints to the trans to dif shaft and then you could space it off to the side and back down. But fitting CV joints into such a small length would be impossible. 

In reply to carwhisperer :

Got it.  I was thinking of the old Hewland transmissions we had in formula and sports racers in the '60s and '70s that had a Beetle case with the differential swapped sides to get the proper rotation.  Couldn't find a better picture, but my Mom's Formula Ford (well, FB here as it's the year before FF was a real SCCA class) had one in it.

no one mentioned the fact that the 3.2 likes to eat head gaskets regularly.  swap in the 3.5 and you would be good.

Brian said:

no one mentioned the fact that the 3.2 likes to eat head gaskets regularly.  swap in the 3.5 and you would be good.

I have heard about the 3.5 swap and i couldn't figure out why it's a thing. The 3.2 type2 is rated at 230hp while the best 3.5 is rated at 225 I think. What have you heard about HG's? I have seen some really high mileage 3.2 cars at PnP (249K, 389K, 190K) , but I suppose they could have had HG repairs done along the way.

In reply to carwhisperer :

when I had my warehouse, the guy I had there helping me out was a legend nut.  He was doing several head gaskets a year on assorted peoples cars.  The 3.5 was designed to fix the problem.

I like this idea. Seems like it would yield a much more desirable finished product vs. the transverse D-series in your other thread. I don't know anything about these V6s but the drivetrain and layout seem to be borne from the same root idea as the old Olds Toronado / FWD Eldorado setup, but without that terrible chain drive. And with might of Honda engineering behind it.

I will have to play devil's advocate and ask if you've also considered a B4 Passat 1.8T drivetrain or maybe a later Audi A4 2.0T. Would that place the engine too far forward in the Beetle, if the transaxle output shafts were lined up with the rear wheel centerline? Seems like it would give more even weight distribution but probably sacrifice the rear seat, from the photos I found of that setup. Overall vehicle mass would be lighter as well and it would keep the drivetrain "in the family." Just an idea.

Either way... longitudinal mid-engine Beetle > transverse mid/rear-engine Beetle ;-)

carwhisperer said:

Brian said:

no one mentioned the fact that the 3.2 likes to eat head gaskets regularly.  swap in the 3.5 and you would be good.

I have heard about the 3.5 swap and i couldn't figure out why it's a thing. The 3.2 type2 is rated at 230hp while the best 3.5 is rated at 225 I think. What have you heard about HG's? I have seen some really high mileage 3.2 cars at PnP (249K, 389K, 190K) , but I suppose they could have had HG repairs done along the way.

They do. If they're high mileage, they've been replaced before. Even the 3.5RL's will need them. ~150k was the average lifespan. Great engines, big and last a long time but they're far from maintenance free. 

Duder said:

I like this idea. Seems like it would yield a much more desirable finished product vs. the transverse D-series in your other thread. I don't know anything about these V6s but the drivetrain and layout seem to be borne from the same root idea as the old Olds Toronado / FWD Eldorado setup, but without that terrible chain drive. And with might of Honda engineering behind it.

I will have to play devil's advocate and ask if you've also considered a B4 Passat 1.8T drivetrain or maybe a later Audi A4 2.0T. Would that place the engine too far forward in the Beetle, if the transaxle output shafts were lined up with the rear wheel centerline? Seems like it would give more even weight distribution but probably sacrifice the rear seat, from the photos I found of that setup. Overall vehicle mass would be lighter as well and it would keep the drivetrain "in the family." Just an idea.

Either way... longitudinal mid-engine Beetle > transverse mid/rear-engine Beetle ;-)

Yes, the longitudinal Audis would place the engine much further forward. On the Legend setup the axle centerline is in the middle of the oil pan, 10 inches behind the front pulley. On the longitudinal Audis the axle is all the way behind the engine and clutch. So I think the shortest longitudinal Audi, the 3.0 or 2.7t V6's, would be about 14-16" further forward. Yes you lose the back seat, which isn't the end of the world. I doubt anyone would ever be daring enough to ride back there anyway.  But I think you also lose the torsion bar tube and cut pretty deep into the pan and then you need to go coilover. (not that coilovers aren't fun!).  Also, all of the Audis (until 2016 or 2017 I think) are iron block motors. I think the 2.7t weighs in at 500lbs with accessories, heavier than an LS1, if I have my figures straight. I believe the aluminum block Legend motor is more like 300lbs dressed, maybe 350. I would think the Audi trans is lighter, though. But I predict a net savings of 100 to 200 lbs going Acura vs. Audi. And yes, weight balance would certainly be better with the Audi. 

Saw It done in a 914 years ago It look RIGHT

Not sure what transmission this car has, but here's a Beetle with a Honda 3.5 swap that runs in Lemons. It's freaking awesome, dangerous, and FAST. 

https://www.engineswapdepot.com/?p=14454 

I saw that thing. It looks awesome. I'll bet it has a Porsche 901, G50 or Bus trans.

Mine is the same color! Here mine is after the 944 Brembo's installed in the front:

Definitely do it. Had a gen 1 (1991?) 15 years ago. Those only had 160hp, but began my love of the Honda V6 sound. It wasn't fast, but quick enough. Fun to wind it out. 

Vinny uses J series engines in the Super Beetle. It was actually a Pinto bean first. He uses later Bus transmissions as they take way more power than the Type 1 transmissions.