FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

In reply to TurboFource :

I gave  hylomer a lot of thought and I have 2 mostly full tubes in 2 versions.  My fear was that because it doesn't harden I would see sealant blow-out anyplace I was really counting on it.  I almost put 518 on the shim and used hylomer on the o-ring and if 518 everywhere lets me down that is the next plan I think. 

Its actually good I had to pull the head, a couple o-rings were not where they belonged

Looking at it I'm thinking the no sealant shows the higher low areas

This time I used 518 and it was WAY easier to assemble.  after about 5 minutes I almost couldn't move the copper rings and the o-ring had no interest in popping anywhere so overall I feel a lot better this time.   Leak test will be tomorrow to give the sealant time to set.

Fingers crossed for you!

Strike 2.  Gross leak out the side.  When I got the heads off the o-rings stated put and looked.  The issue appears to have been time, maybe it could be solved with technique, not sure.  I coated the deck the shim, installed the shim copper and o-ring, then coated the top  od the shim and head, assembled and torqued.  It looks like the 518 began to set in the thicker areas that made contact as soon as I set the shim on and by the time I torqued it was too late for the material to flow and seal.  Then it took forever to clean it all off.

Hylomer blue on 1 head, hylomer M on the other cuz I didn't have enough of either.  The copper ring and 0-ring stuck in place nicely and unlike the 518 I can see it oozing out a bit so even though it gets really thick really fast it does seem to flow like they say it should.  The heat gun is on the gage plate, in a couple hours I can add pressure and see what I have.

30 m8nutes so no gross leaks

Hylomar to the rescue?

TurboFource said:

Hylomar to the rescue?

Sadly no.  It was at 2psi this morning, I topped it up and it lost 5psi in 20 minutes so its blown the hylomer out somewhere

Darn!!

Darn thought you had it this time .This is really a questionable idea but it might  help pinpoint what's leaking ...shoot a can of freon with uv dye  in there and then.repressure .Water would be nice but doubtful that it could be completely evacuated .

In reply to dave215 :

I could do water, the leak is probably big enough to see, if its a single leak anyway.I suspect this is a water jacket not a cylinder leak, at least at 30psi as the o-rings should easily handle that I'd think but who knows.

I'm a little torn on what to try next.  The aviation sealant seem pretty good but I think I rushed it last time, plus now that I've cleaned the o-rings with lacquer thinner a couple times they've swelled a bit and no longer need to be stretched into place so less chance of popping out. I still like the idea of 518 but the assembly would need to be much faster.  There is the spray copper that I worry is too thin, there is RTV I worry I can't get it assembled quick enough.

......I have a couple days to think because my wife found a great deal on patio stone we don't actually need and it needs to be out of the guys storage unit by the end of the month, all 23,000 lbs of it.

There is also spray viton -haven't used it but seems to be a good concept .I think the question on all these sealants is how thick a film can be  applied and  hold .I think a spray would be easier to build a decent film .

dave215 said:

There is also spray viton -haven't used it but seems to be a good concept .I think the question on all these sealants is how thick a film can be  applied and  hold .I think a spray would be easier to build a decent film .

I'd never heard of that.  Google found me this

pelseal spray viton

Is this what you are talking about.  It doesn't say its for gaskets, more talking about coating stuff....but I did see a youtube video where the used flex seal for a head gasket and it worked up to I think it was a 350hp nitrous shot.  No gasket at all, just a few coats of flexseal.

mke said:

 

I did see a youtube video where the used flex seal for a head gasket and it worked up to I think it was a 350hp nitrous shot.  No gasket at all, just a few coats of flexseal.

did he say how flat the surfaces were before the flexseal? :-)

In reply to mke :

That was it -might be worth a phone call -you might have a new application for their technology .They could advertise it even works on a Ferrari .How many ways can Vitron be formulated.........

dave215 said:

There is also spray viton -haven't used it but seems to be a good concept .I think the question on all these sealants is how thick a film can be  applied and  hold .I think a spray would be easier to build a decent film .

The only real issue with that is that when it burns, it becomes somewhat deadly to handle with bare skin.

Fluorocarbons can be pretty nasty.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

mke said:

 

I did see a youtube video where the used flex seal for a head gasket and it worked up to I think it was a 350hp nitrous shot.  No gasket at all, just a few coats of flexseal.

did he say how flat the surfaces were before the flexseal? :-)

Eh.  One of the guys I work with used to work at a Chrysler dealership.  A guy did cylinder heads on a 3.6 and forgot to install the head gaskets.

It made it about 500mi before it started leaking coolant.

The real killer for head sealing is heat cycles, not so much outright pressure, IME.  

you have already thought of this but -is it possible that the al shims are too smooth and not enough tooth for the sealant ........

While I was stacking 20k+lbs of  patio stones i don't need but my wife got for a great price the last couple days it occurred to me that I should be thinking about hoop stress and haven't been...those copper rings will be 6-8 times their yield stress so getting this setup to pass a bench leak test is a pointless exercise I think.  I need to think about this a little more.

In happier news, the trans shaft now has threads so the ring nut fits, thank you Sean

I think the next attempt  I will remake the 0.05" think alum shim to butt right up to the copper flame rings and remake those with 0.063" material so they are crush washers and forgetthe rubber orings.  If I leave them 0.08" wide like they are they should crush at around 9k lbs.  the WOT combustion load on the head is going to be 10k-13k lbs maybe and the bolts usually deliver about triple that. so the rings should crush down to the shim.

I requested a couple quotes for gas filled metal orings having no idea what they cost but possibly a good solution.  Just got a budgetary quote of 16-20 weeks, $3500-$5000 to get 10-20 seals.  At that price I don't think I'd be willing to test them as both the seal and flame ring which is which is what I'd end up with using the existing liners and/or piston so this thought will go on the back burner until I win the lottery.

I have a note into the cometic engineer and I have a second head gasket specialist I will reach out to today ot get some more thoughts and a 308 buddy shared copper crush ring/alum shim design he is currently using on a 308 which is a little different form what I was thinking.....one of these paths should work.

I took apart a Lotus Twin Cam that had gas rings as you described. Would have worked if the assembler before me hadn't nicked the one at #3. It was running 12.3/1 on pump gas because we didn't know how high it was, just that it was"unusually quick". We rebuilt it with short pistons to get 10.5 for a nearly daily driven car, and Cometic gasket. The head had mating grooves about 1/4 diameter of the rings. 

Could you groove the liners and use a fire ring? Like This: Edit: Or are they grooved already?

In reply to mke :

Rotary enthusiasts tried gas filled rings (at horrific expense, the round diameter is about 10-12" and 2.2mm round thickness) and they don't work any better than regular Viton cord.

Boss 429s didn't even have head gaskets, just O rings at the fluid passages and "Wills rings" for combustion, which sounded like V cross section flat rings.  Combustion pressure would force them tighter against the decks.

Wonder how much THOSE would cost.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I have a request into the company who makes wills rings, I'll let you know if I heard back.  There are a few versions, solid, hollow, pressure filled (which is what I asked about) , round vent holes in, round vent holes out, then "C" section in or out which is the version you are talking about I guess and do have the highest sealing pressure.

Yesterday I  heard back from Murray Glegg from Glegg manufacturing who specializes in old ferrari gaskets.   He had a few questions but seemed confident he can sort out my issues, although he did not say at what price now that I think about it .  I mentioned I would be rechecking the cylinder/deck height relationships and got an "oh that's critical..." response so so I may be doing more engine work. I guess I'll make some kind of tool to push down on the liners and see if they are moving and where they land exactly...hopefully I'm not told I need to change anything.

In reply to mke :

The Wills rings I reference above were either solid, or more likely by feel unvented hollow. If I still have one in the junk box I wills measure and weigh it, but I think someone (not me) pitched them. Memory says around .100" section . $$$$quoted big surprise considering where mine came from.

Heads off and everything clean again.  The hylomer extruded with enough pressure  to force the copper flame rings into the bore so they are scrap.

I made a simple fixture to put pressure on the liners and measured to the protrusion.  The highest is +0.0004", the lowest -0.0008".  Have to wait to see what Murry says about that.