FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

In reply to APEowner :

Yeah.  A dab of hylomer would hold them for assembly to I'd guess.  The laser place has 5 thou, wait, I see 4 and thou in 17-7 , I'll get a quote and if its cheap that might be worth it vs me doing something like you described.

I figured out the front/rear pad thing.  The site that had the best prices also had the numbers swapped so its the front pads that cost more and they cost more because they have wear sensors, which I don't have so I need to sets of the cheaper rear pads. .  Then I have (ferrari) brembo calipers and there are absolutely green stuff pads that will fit these calipers but they don't show up on an F430 search because they F430 goes very fast and will easily overheat the green stuff pads.....bu green stuff pads are available for 308s and what I happily was running before the brake upgrade.  So, green if I want the lowest pedal pressure around town, blue if I don't want to worry about overheat the brakes.

Decided on blue because the description on the green pads said there are 3 versions they match to the application so no way to know if I'm ordering an appropriate pad.  The blue is probably the safer choice anyway since a 308 isn't a light car and mine isn't low hp so a little more pedal pressure around town to get brakes safe at speed seems a good trade.

The shim quote came, $150 so I guess if that is what I do I'll be making them myself.

Tonight I started on the transducer wiring and got the ECU end done.  I think I've said before I use shielded tefzel wire for the sensors which means I can use the cool little shield terminators that solder themselves to the shielding and also moisture seal the wire.

I started running the wires out to the sensors

 then remembered they come out here......and that is a tomorrow problem I think.

I ordered the shim stock, I think it said delivers Saturday

Then moved on the finishing up wiring the transductors,.  I still need to rezip tie stuff but they work so I moved on to adjusting all the new knobs on the brakes.  It was a little more finicky than I was expected but after about 30 minutes the measured curve seemed to match the spread sheet numbers pretty well.  I created a new tab in the ECU display for chassis data figuring I'll add GPS and steering at some point.

This is maybe only interesting to me but I replotted the calculations with G force on the bottom and realized that the mechanical bias takes me to 0.5 g which is really all normal driving and it doesn't take a lot of pedal pressure to get to line pressures that should be 0.5g with the new pads.  The 1st proportioning valve is 0.5-1.0g which is the limit of most street tires 2which is clearly why factories set up the brakes with 1 valve.  The 2nd valve works 1.0-1.25G which is DOT race tires and the 3rd valve is 1.25-1.5 which is slicks and that is pushing friking hard on the pedal.  The proportioning valves are throwing pedal force away and by 1.5G I'm losing about 25% if I'm doing the math right.  It also kind of shows why when you get good tires all of a sudden the rear starts locking and the brake pad people offer lower friction rear pads to help sort it.

In reply to mke :

you rule.

  -- signed, a brake engineer

The fact that the valve absorbs pedal pressure is overlooked by 90% of the people who add them to an existing system. Including me until very recently

In reply to TurnerX19 :

They are still kinda voodoo to me in that respect!

Pedal *force*!!!!

Here's a fun fact I just learned, only 76/77 308s have a proportionate valve.  The thing I assumed was the original valve was just a differential pressure switch for the warning light.  Seems such an odd design choice for a street car I never considered it.

But I guess what's really important is that I just spend the last few weeks optimizing the braking system on a car that doesn't run. 

In reply to mke :

As Dusterbd13 likes to say:

not running is inconvenient. Not stopping is deadly.

In reply to mke :

It would probably make AC freak out that the first thing I'd do to an RX-7 would be to remove the proportioning valve, install it in the nearest trashcan, and replace it with a pair of 10x1.0 double flare unions.

Mazda went overboard with front braking force IMO, and it's even worse when coming down into a corner under engine braking with all that rotational inertia attached to the rear wheels.  Unless one is a fan of early front lockup I guess.

Only time it was ever an issue was that sometimes I'd get a little axle hop coming down into a sub 20mph corner, just need to ease off the brakes a little as you feel the tramping coming on.

Still not sure when I might see head gaskets.  The brake pads still haven't actual shipped, I got an email saying processing when i ordered, and another 2 weeks ago saying "completed for shipment" which when you think about it doesn't mean anything....time to call I guess.  I had let out a mirror to a buddy to measure for repo parts he makes and it came home so I can get those back together and on the car anytime.

I did finally figure out how to say no to driving the ferrari in what I thought was the nicest possible way.  It needs a few things to make it 100% but it's good.

I'll add a little to the supra story.  Mama said how about a civic? I countered that for barely more a BRZ/GR86 seemed like something he'd like much better.....which over several days somehow became a supra project car.   We were watching Copart for the right opportunity and making plans to fit another project into the shop, which would mean moving the 308 aside for a bit and my already limited time directed to a new project. As we watched a few auctions, looked at the auction histories and adding in the fees and shipping and added up what we can see and maybe 50% more for what we can't...... then this one popped up and while not perfect it looks nice, it drives and after back and forth was barely more $$ than we planned as the project budget which was likely was too low anyway.  It needs a few things, there's a reason it was in budget after all,  so it will require a bit of my time vs a new BRZ that wouldn't have, but the 308 can keep its shop spot so a win for me.

It drove terrible on the highway, really twitchy.  The dealer explained "its a sports car...blah, blah....".  yeah. no.  The alignment was way out

It drives fine now but the right front could not be corrected.  The front camber is pretty high for street driving and I guess explains the worn inside edges of the otherwise excellent front tires.  The plan is add a camber kit and probably ignore the caster issue.....although my OCD might make me do something to the chassis especially if I can just egg-out the hole a little so something else easy.  The dealer threw a set of no-name M&S tries on the rear, which I might set aside for next winter but for sure I can't leave those on the rear with sticky pilot sports on the front.  

As I said, not perfect but all manageable and my son was literally is shock when we bought it. We'd talked quite a lot about a project and all that comes with it if we had any hope of sticking to budget and getting mama to approve it....the gas station pick was about an hour into the drive home and about the time he realized I wasn't just messing with him some how.  We also had the I'm only ever buying you 1 car talk.  If you break it you walk.  If you hurt yourself...just don't do that, I'm trusting you so please don't make me regret it.

Its just occurring to me, I'm going to need fresh have a look at the autoX rules to see if the camber adjuster bumps the class and I need to actually fix it for him to stay on stock class.

That's a pretty rad first car!

What got that Supra auctioned at Copart?

In reply to OHSCrifle :

This was not from copart.  We were looking for something on copart thinking that was the only way to afford one, but then found this one elsewhere.  It had apparently been on marketplace a couple months but was outside the search radius we were using.  We saw it last Saturday and ask to see it Sunday but the guy said it was sold.

Then Monday it popped up on a dealer's website and I called but their number was higher than I was thinking.  Tuesday we drove to see it and got them down another $500  to $37k and decided to just buy it.  It sat on marketplace because it has a messy carfax......the guy drove off the road and busted up a lot of suspension to the tune of about $22k.  The dealer wanted me to sign and date every page of the carfax and repair order so there was no question I knew the history.  But it's a 3.0 premium so probably 55-58 new and right about a new brz sport.  Seemed worth the risk.

Update time.
The brake pads never arrived.  The Last week I called/emailed a couple times and they sent a refund saying there was a production issue and it will be 10-12 weeks before the pads are available and they will email to let me know.  They were the cheapest place and since the car doesn't run I've not tried ordering elsewhere.

I emailed the head gasket guy who I'd not heard from since Feb and after a couple days got a response asking for a little additional info.  A buddy says the normal process is answer all questions then wait a LOT of days in silence for the call saying the gaskets are ready followed by happiness that the heads are sealed.  So the wait continues.

Shame on me because I still haven't sent the trans adapter shaft out for heat treat or finished the shims much less install them nor put the side mirrors back together.....just plain lazy.

I did make the 2.5-3 hour drive down to the MD Toyota dealer a couple times to have a few things on the supra sorted.  They were able to fix the right front camber issue by replacing the strut and steering knuckle costing me $1000 (they covered the $900 labor).  Today its getting 4 new tires because the 2 fronts that looked great are missing the inside edges and the 2 new rears of a brand I didn't recognize are Amazon specials so another $1500 gone and since these are the OEM Michelin pilot super sports that are apparently unusable below 32F, another 1000-1200 come October for something that work in the cold.  Now its not like they would have moved any more on price had I noticed any of this ahead of time but its still annoying.  My son is not quite 17 in actual years, I think we're at about 28 in birthday present years.

Then the honey-do.  I finally built a patio by the basement doors.  I'm told garden boxes up this weekend...... 

Ha!  I did something on the car!

The mirrors are working and back on....and not just on, OCD on

The function was still a bit sketchy depending on the how I push/wiggle the switch and its clearly broken.   I could probably fix it by cleaning the contacts and solder-welding the housing, but a brand new one from bimmerworld is $70 so I treated myself.  I'll leave the glass out and screw covers off until the new switch is here and I'm happy all is well.

There was a small scare as I realized the drivers side wires had fallen inside the door

but I was able to fish them back out without needing to pull the door apart

The connectors where corroded beyond salvage so I just used bullet connectors to still fit the tiny little whole in the door and this black wire is why I do all my new wiring with the cad plated aviation spec wire

I thought I might work on something important tonight but I got a note from bimmerworld, the switch is back ordered with no available date because of frikin course nothing is easy even when ferrari used a bmw part its unavailable, so I canceled the order and got to work on the original.  

600 grit on the board contacts and fresh dielectric grease

weld up the broken housing

Everything work so glue on the glass

I broke one of my new covers, but I had an extra I just had to paint it. and that is it. I know this seems small but I've had the car 24 years and tonight was the first time the mirrors worked so to me its a pretty big deal ....celebrate the small wins 

The key word in "small victory" is not "small"

Something like that makes the owner of the car sooo happy.  

That reminds me.  I need to install a new sunvisor on the rx8 project.  So annoying for such a small thing.  I know if will be a big deal to me when it is fixed!

A quick google search for cv boots said ebay had them, a search on eBay and my local ferrari dealer popped up at $28 each, so 4 genuine ferrari boots bought.  Never even thought to call them....Small wins  

Maybe not a win...I got 3 and 1, not sure what to think about this.

Also on my mind is the condition of the suspension. When the car was last inspected in 2005 I kind of remember the guy being not to happy with the visual appearance of the bushings and they still look just awful

The ball joints and tie rod ends are tight but the boots are long past there prime.

Then I've lowered the car about 1.5" so the A-arms are not pointing in the directions the factory intended and I've increased the spri8ng rates by about 4x so the suspension travel and body roll are about 1/4 original meaning the designed camber gain isn't actually doing what it was designed to do.  Also with the grip of wider modern tires (even my old ones) and extra HP there is pretty significant pitch going on throttle to brake that was never intent by the factory. And last setting the rear toe is only possible because the A-arm bushings are rubber and can twist a bit making replacing the rear bushing with, I don't know, just thinking out loud....say ball bearings or delrin or rod ends not a good idea.  I think I've mentioned this before but I'm kind of leaning toward doing something....something that involves cutting and welding......

This car's original geometery is not bad enough to cut it up. I am pretty sure you can get just the boots for the original ball joints too. I don't know if the quality of the available rubber for your car has deteriorated as badly as it has for everything I work on, I hope not.