It's....Different. 1997 Camaro SS AutoX/Track Car

One more update that brings this up to present day - at the event I was lucky enough to pick up 315 Hoosiers with a little life left in them.  These may not make it onto the car until spring and it would be smart to do the bulletproof hub upgrade first (a $995 pill to swallow) but I couldn't turn down the offer.  They'll get bagged and stored properly while I hunt for affordable wheels wide enough to support them.  I think the C5 Z06 18x10.5 sizing will be 'good enough' and that is available from a few sources - used OEM takeoffs as well as a variety of choices of heavy aftermarket wheels in that size for $500-$600 per set.  Not terrible, but not money I am going to spend this season.

Boy these things are big.

Next event is on Sunday.  I need to rotate the tires and finish grinding out the hub on the 4th wheel at that time.  Also want to look over the car pretty well.  There's a lot of basic things I haven't checked since buying it, like the alignment and shock settings for that matter!  It developed a pull to the right on the highway, which is PROBABLY just a factor of used RE71 combined with a toe-out alignment (old RE71 track horribly as they wear, in my experience), but I still want to check everything over.  It also wouldn't hurt to take the trailer hitch off, that's 20-50 pounds of dead weight hanging out the rear end.

Ah you were at that NNJR event. I was there driving my Vette with a friend of mine. The heat was absurdly brutal! I'm running the Rival S 1.0 and we were spraying the tires between runs and they were still feeling greasy by the end of the run. The finish was covered in black.

In reply to Harvey :

Yeah that was something.  I pulled to grid to run 4th heat and competitors were spraying their tires BEFORE run 1, that's when I knew I was screwed.

RedGT said:

In reply to Harvey :

Yeah that was something.  I pulled to grid to run 4th heat and competitors were spraying their tires BEFORE run 1, that's when I knew I was screwed.

Spraying tires before the first run! That's something I've never seen, even here in FL.

Learning how solid axles work:  if you jack up the car from the body, to rotate tires, and so the axle is hanging at full droop... the springs just fall out.  Oh.  Okay.

Usually only do that with lowering springs.

I used a chunk of old ratchet strap to make axle travel limiters for my el Camino because i was sick of that happening. Just tied it in a knot around the axle and tge other end around the frame. Redneck as hell, but it worked.

You made me realize I haven't put any of the car's specs in this thread yet.  This is all based on the PO's information:

Suspension:

* Springs:  800 lb front, 400lb rear, threaded perches.

* Shocks:  Koni Yellow (monotube in this application) single adjustable.

* 21mm rear sway, 35mm front sway.  I didn't yet identify if these are solid or hollow.

* Globalwest TrackLink Torque Arm.  It's a little clunky.  From some research, some say they are supposed to be quiet when adjusted properly, some say they will make noise no matter what.  And some people say it will rip the floorboards out of a 3rd gen.  I haven't even looked at the thing yet.

* Fays2 Watts Link.  I found last night that the rod ends/heim joints on the end of the watts link have a fair amount of play in them, which doesn't surprise me based on the lifespan I am used to from rod ends on my Miata, and how long these links have been on the Camaro.  They're on the list to replace.

A couple of weeks ago I ran the car across a local truck scale (20 lb increments) and it was flickering between 3400 and 3420. Call it 3410. That was short about 7 gallons of gas from competition trim but with the trailer hitch still installed.  Removed the hitch tonight and weighed it - 32 lbs.  Add the gas - 44 lbs - plus an extra pound per corner for these 18" wheel/tire combo, and the result is a race weight around 3430.

Interesting to see the curb weight.  I would think that would be very similar to my car (other than yours has AC).  I noticed your car has no fog lights, no t-tops and manual windows as well - have you dug into the options sticker on the door (and inside glovebox) to see how the car was configured originally?

In reply to pontiacstogo :

"The only option added beyond the SS package was the rear defroster"  is the extent of the information I have.  A/C was indeed standard in '97 so that seems to be correct info.  Haven't looked into the stickers yet, and need to ping the seller who mentioned he would send a photo of the window sticker and SLP sheet.  But those documents are nicely framed and he is keeping them.

Seller sent the window sticker photos.  Thanks!

Picked up a pair of Z06 rear wheels yesterday.  They are far and away the WORST wheels I have ever bought.  They weigh 28 pounds each, were made in China, all the chrome is peeling from all the surfaces, and they look to have needed over 1/4 lb of weight to balance them last time.

But they are 18x10.5, I paid $20 - scrap value - and the seller dropped them off at the autocross I was at.  Cannot complain about that part, and now I'm 2 wheels closer to being able to put the Hoosiers on without breaking the bank.

Ran another event in the Camaro on Sunday.  It was pretty hot again, and I've learned that the way the bridgestones behave on such a heavy car is different from what I am used to when I was running them 2 years ago on a much lighter Miata.  Run 1 is cold tires.  Run 2 is warm tires but it doesn't feel 'right'.  Run 3 is overheated greasy tires.  Borrowed a sprayer, and even with limited spraying the tires stabilized and felt pretty good and predictable after that.  I'll definitely need to bring my own.

I was always a fan of really hot bridgestones on the Miata - they don't get slower, but they definitely change to a more vague and squishy feeling that some people find slower because it's harder to drive.  On the nimble, responsive Miata that was still OK for me.  But put that sensation under the much more vague and heavy feeling Camaro and I can't drive it well, like everyone else complains about.  I see why folks with large cars spray the crap out of RE71's in hot weather.

Video:  https://youtu.be/S_VDZPqoCOE  

I finally had some runs without cones.  I also finally beat the STS class on raw time, which was sort of a running joke goal because after years of wondering why CAM cars were so much slower than a 98 hp Miata, here I am trying to drive one and going no faster through the course than a 98 hp Miata!  However the fastest local cars weren't in attendance so....not sure that counts.

Slight improvement.  Previously I was bench racing dirty times just to get an idea of general speed.  Now some clean results to compare.

No photographers yet at any of these events, which sucks, I'd love a shot of the car on course.  At this one it showed up in the background of this GORGEOUS jag:

RedGT said:

Random tidbit - about 2 weeks into the 1-month wait between deposit and pickup, I made the mistake of driving a full prep Hoosier-clad ESP Camaro

Doubtful. There are only two of those cars in the country, one in Colorado and one in Ohio. One of those cars is significantly further down the rabbit hole than the other. The other cars are all half-assed levels of prep.

In reply to landstuhltaylor :

Fair.

It's down on power, overweight, and probably outdated shock tuning.  But, big ol' ESP camaro on big ol' hoosiers.

Cool to see the window sticker and SLP package list - quite the desirable 4th gen in it's day. 

I took a look at the windows sticker for my Z28 and the ZR tire option was the same $225 3 years earlier on.  Mine had the $310 'performance package' (1LE option) and not much else for a total sticker price in 94 of $18,099.00.

On Friday we finally got this on the rack to sort out the alignment.

First of all, I has garage envy.  4 bays, lift, alignment rack, tire machines, etc!

Up we go.

Starting alignment was...less than ideal.

I had written a boring paragraph about the adjustment process, which got accidentally refreshed and I don't want to retype it - long story short, between figuring out the car, and figuring out my buddy's still sorta new-to-him machine, it took a bunch of trial and error and time.  We ended up here for front caster and camber.  Much better.

I liked the way the car drove with the amount of toe it had, so we left that alone - but shifted it so the steering wheel is straight now.  (before pic.  After is 0.6°, event split to each side  That's just about 1/8" toe out per side in old school measurements.)

Bonus!  There's scales!

Here's the weight sans driver.  I had estimated 3460 based upon weighing it on a +/-20 lb scale and then weighing what I removed from the car.  Close!

Corner balancing w/ driver weight

Start:

Final:

I can't see any of the pictures so I have no idea what you ended up with. I experimented with different things and found that just maxing out camber and caster was the way to go at least on the A7s, which winds up at -3.0 for camber and 6.0 for caster. At bare minimum I would be starting around -2.5/5.5. For toe I messed around with various settings. Numbers like you are running were only serving to bandaid a bad setup, now I'm working in the 0.10 to 0.20 total toe out range.

I'm also realizing this is the car I've been getting messages about. Those Konis absolutely cannot control that spring rate. They need a lot more compression that what they have and frankly they just suck over bumps in general. Penskes are cheap, relatively speaking. Weight is OK considering the iron block, but it should easily get into the mid-low 3300 range without spending real money.

And don't run a travel limiting strap in the rear unless you really hate grip.

In reply to landstuhltaylor :

All the pics or recent pics?  They're all on imgur, if anyone else is having them not show up please let me know.

Alignment is now 3.4-3.5 front camber, 6.2-6.4 caster, toe as noted above.  It had been off by over half a degree from side to side for caster and camber - the car wanting to pull into the ditch when you let go of the wheel, is gone now.

Rear camber 0.6 each side, 0.21 L 0.08 R toe in.  We didn't touch the rear end.

No limiting straps.  But i thought about adding some for the convenience of the springs not falling out when i jack up from the body to change wheels.  Since the springs don't fall out on track, seems there is a length that would keep the springs in but wouldn't affect handling.

Confirmed yesterday with the original builder that the shocks are off the shelf Koni Yellows, no fancy valving.  The car feels okay driving it on course, but observers have noted that the rear looks bouncy.  It absolutely does drive like it needs more rebound on the street.  And yes it sucks on all bumps.  The STS Miata (800/450 springs, DA Konis with some work into them) rides like a cadillac by comparison.

The alignment / corner weighting has the car to what i consider a reasonable baseline now.  Next event with it is Aug 25.  Then start changing settings and/or parts.

Since we already covered most of this...

The only thing travel straps will do is lift a tire instead of letting the spring come loose. This will lead to inside wheelspin and makes it much more likely you will frag a diff when that spinning tire touches down. (Related to this, you may have issues with inside wheelspin anyway on Hoosiers) My springs come loose when I lift the car, I don't care. It will reseat almost immediately, or sometimes 5 minutes later when I've walked away from the car. If mine does stay ESP I'm going to experiment with fabbing up a helper spring setup over the winter. If not I'll have some Ground Control rear spring perches available for anyone who wants them.

The bouncing is why I moved on from the Konis. If an upgrade isn't in the budget I would go down to something like a 600/200 rate and just accept that the car will be soft. Make sure it still has bumpstops on it and it will be fine. But FWIW, the Penske setup is infinitely more comfortable at 1200/550 than the car ever was on 800/400 Konis. I could launch the car 4 wheels off railroad crossings and the only annoying part was hearing the tool box take flight in the trunk.

I can see the pics now, Imgur must be blocked at work.

Axle bumpstops can be sourced from the jeep guys 

In reply to Agent98 :

I've seen that those exist and that the GM ones are NLA - do you know WHICH model jeep parts fit?  There's a few of similar shapes and dimensions.

Super important update:  nearly 2 months later, I washed it for the first time!

Also pulled a rear spring to see what exactly was in there.

I had withdrawal watching everyone at nationals while i was stuck home in PA, so i signed up for a local 2.5 hrs away on Sunday. 

In the past few weeks the battery failed on the car and I replaced it with a new Optima.  $. Ouch.  But it is in the passenger compartment so i needed something AGM and they are all around the same price.

I drove the car for 3 runs at an autocross school after instructing in a Camaro and Mustang, both with more power and less suspension.  I was immediately over a second faster on a 30 second course in my own car, despite being on the Continental street tires.  OK, good.  However it was eye-opening how much better the other two cars put power down.  In particular, the LS1 camaro with 400 hp to the wheels on Falkens, I could comfortably put my foot to the floor in the student's car and trust it to stick.  In my car I'm sawing at the wheel to keep the rear behind me any time I am on the throttle.  

So I lowered the watts link one position for the event tomorrow, and may go softer on the rear bar too, once i see how it drives.  Discussed different spring rates with a bunch of people but did not purchase yet.

Also attempted to tighten the torque arm which has backed off about 1/4" from where it is supposed to be, but discovered my toolbox isn't manly enough for this.  I need a 36mm 1/2" drive socket, or a 3/4" flex head ratchet to go in my current 3/4 drive 36mm socket.  Literally no room up in there for anything else and even with the right tools I think I'll need ot remove 2 of the cross braces under the car for access.  Next week!  At least I greased it, along with the sway bar bushings and upper control arms which all have zerk fittings.  2 of the sway bar bushings are breaking down, will need to replace those soon too.

While under there I noticed exhaust turndown is only welded 2/3 of the way around because....because....?.  Because you can't reach the top with a welder when it is installed on the car, I guess :-/