R63 AMG The Unicorn of my Destruction

mazdeuce wrote: The Audi hate is largely tongue in cheek.

Of course, and I've been a forum rat long enough to know that the give-and-take is half of what makes these places so valuable. The other half is true community and camaraderie. The other half (to Yogi Berra it a bit) is in the depth of knowledge and information.

For whatever reason there is an abnormally large percentage of Audi owners who think "I can do that!" and dive in and show the world their carnage. I suspect it's because a lot of them use VW's as a gateway drug and working on your own Volkswagen is a time honored tradition.

This is abundantly true, yes. It wasn't quite the same for me, having first turned wrenches for real on an angry old Swedish rally car, but VW was in fact a gateway drug. A truly huge number of these VW/Audi wrenchers are total novices and I'm sure they show up here from time to time. There's a smaller but still significant cohort of skilled people with a ton of VAG knowledge who tackle the bigger stuff. I like to think I'm in the latter group.

I'll share more of my Audi projects in the future; most of the past projects have been documented on the various Audi forums. I like to modify, so a supercharger is in the plans for the already highly non-stock S5. The TT gets so few miles that it hardly seems worth it to put any more bits on it. I also like to fab stuff; my latest DIY is wet-layup carbon fiber. Interior trim, trinkets... I even built a carbon fiber desk. Ornamental stuff. I'm getting a vacuum bagging system so I can achieve better tolerances, as well as actually making light-duty structural parts.

Superchsrged Audi and carbon fiber desk? Sign me up for that newsletter.

In other Mercedes news, I'm watching the 24 Hours of Daytona and man oh man that AMG GT is a sexy beast. I forgot how much I love that long hood.

I feel like the GT is a huge styling step backward from the SLS, but its basic proportion is sure nice! Everything ive seen and read makes it sound like a smashing success right out of the gate, at least as far as performance of intended function vs competition. I dont know how it sells.

Hey Mazdeuce, i was just talking to the other 911 owner in my neighborhood here and he brought up that funny looking mercedes wagon with the $55k engine he read about on the internet. The world keeps getting smaller!

Mazdeuce:

Thank you for this post, without it and road and tracks post I would have never found GRM. I have thuroughly enjoyed your articles and now look at my Grosh differently everyday. I love your step by step approach and wise ways. Thank you for sharing. I look forward to reading more from the very inspiring people on this forum.

Thank you again.

In reply to Emge:

You don't know how happy it makes me to have inadvertently brought a group of new people to GRM. When I think about it it's weird, the R63 isn't exactly what people think of when Grassroots Motorsports comes up and having it briefly be the public face of the forum feels odd. I do think it brought in a bunch of people like you who looked around and found a place where they can hang out and talk cars, all cars, and enjoy themselves. I'm glad you're here.

Deuce, I regret thread-jacking your fantastic thread, but sometimes, a bit of reasoned, respectful discussion is called for. This is that. 

Lambo_Rambo wrote: Two things you have to know about the big Audis (also for some VWs) #1 the engine is completely in front the front axle, which is the complete opposite to what every other car manufacturer believes in when it comes to weight distribution, 

The Achilles' Heel of longitudinal-engined Audis with quattro is, and will remain, weight, and weight distribution, and the ensuing effects on handling balance and diminished steering feel (the latter due to both the weight distribution and the required front knuckle design with the steering rack at the back). I'm keenly aware of this fact.

This weight distribution isn't, as your statement tacitly suggests, a primary design philosophy in itself, but a trade-off related to Torsen-based quattro, where the front differential requires the front axles to be aft of the engine's driveplate. VAG’s new MLP-based cars (starting with the Audi B8 platform) employ a nifty setup wherein the left half-shaft passes through the bell housing and between the drive plate and the dual-mass flywheel, which allows the flywheel, clutch transmission, and center diff to shift closer to the center of the car, improving overall balance. On the S5 with the V8, it's 57/43 F/R, which, along with other architectural changes of MLP,  is a meaningful improvement...  but let's be honest: it's still sub-optimal, and even the best Audi exhibits push. No matter what spring rates, damper settings, ARB stiffness settings, tire pressures, track width, or tire geometry that I tinker with, the car will eventually push. Now, with all of the mechanical grip I have, that push starts to happen under really extreme loading, but it's understeer nonetheless.

With that said, most Audi fans view all of this as a worthy trade-off for quattro, and for the rest of the subjective attributes that define the cars. Quattro is fantastic, but I'm not sure it's overwhelmingly better than other mechanical AWD systems, and it's a lively debate with respect to whether or not other AWD architectures are better or worse. A cynic might think defenders are suffering from a mild case of Stockholm Syndrome, and/or overemphasizing the subjective elements. Subjectivity, though, is just that: subjective. There are lots of other things that people love, subjectively, even though any reasonable objective analysis doesn’t support it (e.g. $30K watches). If car enthusiasts were being purely objective about things, we’d all agree that the only cars to have would be Corvette Z06 or Mustang GT350 because the bang-for-buck ratio is just so good.

But, I’m not the arbiter of such things… which is funny, because I have such strongly-formed opinions on the matters, one would think I should be right. But no.

and #2 you have to remove the engine for most of the problems to be fixed. 

I've been turning wrenches on my Audis, and a dozen of my friends’ Audis, for fifteen years, and yammering on Audi and VW discussion forums for all that time. Your statement is simply not true, or at least, exaggerated; engine-out repair is not nearly common enough to even come close to needing "most" as an adverb here. Despite what I mentioned above about the engine almost coming out of my car twice, it actually hasn't had to, I'm just tempted to do so because I prefer the idea of doing a clutch with the engine out of the car.

And the reason for both of these is the famous quattro system, which will inevitably lead to audi's death one day. 

Erm... "death" strikes me as awfully hyperbolic. Even if we ignore data that contradicts this (sales growth in recent years; market share gains; resale value), quattro and its drawbacks are hardly the sorts of issues that will lead to the marque's "death."

The reason to put the chains at the back of the engine is the same - to take weight from the front of the car/engine and move it backwards to compensate for the very wrong concept of putting the engine in front of the axle. Which also means the slightest hit in the middle of the front bumper means new radiators... 

The reasoning of timing gear location is generally true. I've never, however, heard of radiator damage being a problem that's exaggerated in Audis due to packaging constraints, ever. Not once. 

mazdeuce wrote: I do think it brought in a bunch of people like you who looked around and found a place where they can hang out and talk cars, all cars, and enjoy themselves.

Agreed. I think what's great about this thread/event (and I say this as a newcomer) is that it self-selects to a narrow and specific subset of enthusiasts that isn't just based on marque or model. I gather that we're all mechanically apt and a bit more project-ambitious (trending to the side of "nuts") than a group you'd find on the average forum.

In reply to mazdeuce:

Thank you for that welcome. Your thread has also given me some courage to go 911 hunting. I have wanted one for more than half my life and ironically it appears as though the best kept 911s in my price range are in your ish neck of the woods. (Currently hunting a 911 turbo in waco.) Fingers crossed. And now back to unicorns.

Europa wrote: Deuce, I regret thread-jacking your fantastic thread, but sometimes, a bit of reasoned, respectful discussion is called for. This is that. 

Lambo_Rambo wrote: Two things you have to know about the big Audis (also for some VWs) #1 the engine is completely in front the front axle, which is the complete opposite to what every other car manufacturer believes in when it comes to weight distribution, 

The Achilles' Heel of longitudinal-engined Audis with quattro is, and will remain, weight, and weight distribution, and the ensuing effects on handling balance and diminished steering feel (the latter due to both the weight distribution and the required front knuckle design with the steering rack at the back). I'm keenly aware of this fact.

You made a lot of words to ignore two simple facts.

1. All front wheel drive and transaxle style AWD vehicles have the engine completely in front of the front axle. (Not counting longitudinal Acuras, or backwards-engined SAABs, because they're the weird exceptions that prove the rule)
2. Longitudinal AWD has the courtesy of putting the transmission mostly behind the front axle centerline, while transverse setups have the transmission mostly ahead of the axle centerline.

There. That's it, book it, done.

"quattro" is just Audi's word for AWD, whether it is the traditional longitudinal bevel-diff setup, the heretical longitudinal with Torsen models that are best left not spoken of, and the transverse computer-controlled clutch engagement diffs that are currently what WRC uses and they are leagues faster than Group B with less power and more weight.

Here endeth my contribution to your threadjack. Let's see more artful Mercedes castings (Must pronounce Mercedes with an almost esszet-like C, more like murszeddis than murrsaydees)

Another odd FWD was the longitudinal V8 design GM used starting with the 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado. The Unitized Power Package positioned the engine almost directly centered fore-aft over the axle, with the transmission beside the engine and all of it behind the axle.

The UPP was used, with engines up to 500ci and 500 foot pounds torque (only reached in 1971 before the EPA's regulations neutered everything) through 1986 when GM downsized the Eldorado and Toronado with a switch to transverse engines.

The end of the UPP also tolled the end of the always futuristic looking GMC Motorhome and sent Revcon to the drawing board to concoct a replacement for their UPP based motorhomes.

Was UPP good for performance? I read in an old car magazine that GM's test drivers complained that the Toronado's pop up headlights wouldn't close until they dropped speed below 120 MPH.

Galane wrote: The UPP was used, with engines up to 500ci and 500 foot pounds torque (only reached in 1971 before the EPA's regulations neutered everything)

The 1970 Cadillac Eldorado was the height of size and torque with 500ci and a factory rating of 550 ft lbs @ 3000 rpm. While a lot of people blame the lower ratings of later years on emissions, a big blame can be put on the change from SAE Gross to SAE Net ratings around the same time. Sorry the closet Cadillac geek in me came out.

Okay, so as not to wear out my welcome by continuing to hijack, and using all the words I know in the whole world:

Knurled wrote: You made a lot of words to ignore two simple facts.

Not ignored. AWD wasn't itself the topic; the subthread was about Audi's implementation of AWD. Were this a conversation about the benefits and drawbacks of AWD systems as a whole, the points you make would have been appropriate. I'll mention that I tend to write large blocks of text because of the way search works on forums. All too frequently, searching will yield incomplete snippets of conversations that lack context, and at a certain point, people stop clicking back/forward to see the whole conversation. This allows incomplete information to spread. I also write a lot because I'm long-winded.

heretical longitudinal with Torsen models that are best left not spoken of,

Torsen-Audi people are like a cult-gang within the Audi community. There are even tattoos to identify some members.

and the transverse computer-controlled clutch engagement diffs that are currently what WRC uses and they are leagues faster than Group B with less power and more weight.

... this is what I was alluding to with the "lively debate." Regardless of how objectively superior some (newer) AWD technologies are to Torsen, certain devotees employ a "pry it from my cold, dead hands" approach to the argument.

This shall end my threadjack as well.

Someone needs to start a museum of unconventional drivetrains. We could have a good time if they let us touch the exhibits.

In reply to mazdeuce:

Someone needs to start a separate "mazdeuce man-crush" thread so this thread can get back to its essence. Seeing it at the top of "latest topics" only to find the latest post is arguing non-R63AMG stuff makes me want to punch babies.

OK then, just for Mr. AngryCorvair, this is the thermostat housing. And thermostat. And temperature sensor. All rolled into one and only available as a unit. Maybe, just maybe Mercedes designed and build a thermostat that never fails so this makes sense, but if that were the goal then why build that long fragile plastic elbow into it? Because when you break that you get to spend $100 to buy the whole assembly.
This is the only thing I've broken so far aside from one tab on one electrical connection. Considering my historical breakage rates, I'm not doing too bad.

In reply to mazdeuce:

I'm impressed that it's only $100.

What our collective R63 adventure proves to me is that isn't about the CAR, its about the APPROACH to the car. Reach in, get hands dirty, figure it out. That's what brings this forum together. To quote Jack Sparrow "The problem's not the problem, its your attitude towards the problem."

mazdeuce wrote: : When I think about it it's weird, the R63 isn't exactly what people think of when Grassroots Motorsports comes up and having it briefly be the public face of the forum feels odd.

$100 is a gift. Thank them.

GERMANS on my X3 the fuel filter is also the pressure regulator, so now a $20 part (filter) is now $130. To make it more interesting, there are two versions, they look alike, and either will fit, but have different pressure. Of course I got the wrong one from a vendor, and had to do the job again. It's in the tank.... About half of the X3 is made of plastic and it snaps together, making any disassembly more interesting.

I just looked at the invoice. $127. List price is $172. mboemparts.com is awesome. They have great prices, the website is good, and when they found out they couldn't get me a part they sent an email giving me the phone number for MB Classics Center suggesting I give them a call. I wrote back thanking them and then THEY wrote back saying you're welcome. I found myself in a Canadian standoff with a parts supplier and had to back down. It was a good day.

"Canadian Standoff".

That is terrific.

In reply to mazdeuce:

They don't fail no where near as often as the ones in the 272/273 motors.

What's your take on Ricky T dive bombing turn one with four minute's to go and winning the 24hrs?!!!!?? Reminds me of Johnny o'C at laguna seca last year doing the same to Patrick L and being stripped of the victory. The #33 AMG GT is co-driven by Ben Keeting of Tomball ford/dodge where the Viper exchange resides.

In reply to 759NRNG:

I didn't get a chance to watch the end of the race, I was busy delivering the rally car and teaching my oldest to drive. The race was fun, but not that fun.
I can't comment on the particular move, but this sort of thing is going to happen when the cars are so equal. Nobody has a mechanical advantage so you have to make it up with driving, be it clean or dirty. If you make everyone equal you get high dollar Spec Miata with all the good and bad it brings. It was fun watching the race stay that close for that long. The current formula is probably a bit frustrating for the teams, bit it makes for good spectating and no one manufacturer is likely to dominate which I think has contributed to all of the people playing in this series. Racing right now is good.

@mazdeuce Don't know if you saw it, the R63 on bring a trailer sold today for $42,350. I just finished the grosh thread, you sir are the man! Also the 1 lap thread and a couple others. I'm so glad I found this awesome site. And again, if you are ever up in DFW, let me know, drink is on me.