Run Away's Challenge Build

I'm burnt out on home renos. Rather than feeling guilty about not being able to find the motivation to continue progress on the house, I've started picking away at the Neon again.

Bought some rod ends on boxing week, might try to make the arms out of these. I would need to find a cheap way to make sleeves that are a precision fit to the inside diameter of the rod end, and have an inner diameter close to the factory Neon bolt sizes. Anyone have a solution for this?

I could either do both ends, or just the forward mounting point. Using the rod ends would mean I could use a cheaper bushing kit for just the rear end of the car. Overall budget hit would be slightly higher depending on how I make sleeves, but way better end result plus adjustability. I'm just using a 13mm socket in the pic below

While I try to figure that solution out I'm also making arms for very low cost as a first try/backup.

I'm using 2g Neon control arms as they're stamped steel and not cast so I can cut and weld things. The rear bushings are Prothane for 1g Neon and fit directly (2g neon bushigns are taller and don't fit the 1g subframe).  The front bushings are 2g Neon shaved down to fit the 1g subframe. The 1g Prothane bushings are too small for the 2g arms.

It took my 2 tries but I got things to where the 2g arms cleared the 1g subframe, and I placed the lower balljoint forward and out so that the stock Altima axles fit in about the middle of their plunge. I moved the balljoint forward to gain tire clearance to the firewall/pinchweld area, the wheel should be just forward of center in the wheel opening now. I'm planning on running a 26" diameter tire if possible. I haven't done any calculations on how that's going to affect the rest of the steering or suspension geometry, I'm just making things fit and crossing my fingers it doesn't have evil handling. If I does, I'll do it over again. I should note that the Sentra knuckles I'm using do have a longer steering arm than the Neon, so the tie rod angles are pretty close to stock. That also means the steering will slow down some unfortunately.

Suspension and axles all fitting in.

Widening the track of course added a whole bunch of camber, but I can fix that later both at the top of the strut tower and where the strut bolts to the knuckle. There's a huge amount of room in the tower.

The downside there is that cutting up the tower lots could ruin the chassis VIN number on the strut tower.  Pretty stupid spot to put that IMO.

I bought a big spool of welding wire specifically for this project, but the middle of the spool is way bigger than what fits my machine. Is there an adapter? My google-fu didn't come up with much.

So I've just been using the spool that was already on there and I'll have to budget for the more expensive 2lb spools.

Welded up the control arms

I'm pretty much done the right side arm and just have the top plates to finish on the left side.

Once the arms are in I can make it a roller on Nissan suspension and build motor mounts.

Any advice on the welder or making sleeves to make the rod ends bolt in cost effectively would be really appreciated!

Yes there are adapters for that larger spool

https://www.google.com/search?q=wire+spool+adapter+welder&client=safari&hl=en-us&sxsrf=ALeKk03BGiABZRWswGv1IrzRb7_zxRAnhw:1611522776654&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZlZiVvrXuAhV_GVkFHb42AosQ_AUIxQIoAA&biw=1197&bih=729

Nice welds

Excellent, thanks for the link. I was using the word spindle, that's probably why I couldn't get anything.

imgur is really flaky lately, makes updating things a bid ordeal. Not sure what I'm going to do about that. Uploading pics to the forum one by one is also a bit clunky. Not sure what I'm going to do.

Made the switch to Nissan rollers now. Car stays outside and must remain a roller at the end of every session so that eats up time putting the suspension on and off again. This is the first time rolling it on the non-stock setup.

First step was adapting the Neon rack to the Nissan knuckles. Metro/Firefly/Swift inner tie rods are the ticket here

Installed with the control arms, which got a coat of paint. $17 for a can of Tremclad semi gloss, going to use it one everything.

Axle nut on the left side decided to gall on me and ate up a bunch of time saving it. It's not pretty, but it works.

All together with axles in.

Put the wheels on and was surprised to find they hit the calipers. I must have test fit with my 04 Sentra wheels prior. Not sure if I'm fully committed to the 17s, may try and use 15s. Cheap wheels in decent widths are difficult to find in 4x114.3". The axles also didn't seat fully into the Sentra hubs, the ABS tone rings interfered but they popped right off with an air hammer.

The wheels do look pretty good. Radwood vibes.

There's about 6-7 deg of camber there, I'm aiming for 3 degrees  for auto x and it would be nice to be able to quickly bring that to zero for drags. I'm thinking take out 3 deg with the knuckle to strut connection, and then have the strut towers slotted for the next 3 deg.  I'm also not happy with my decision to push the wheels so far forward in the wheel opening, I will be revisiting the control arms at a later date.

Next up is making engine mounts now that I can use the axles as reference to get the engine placement dialed. I'll probably start with the left side transmission mount. Then the right side timing cover mount. The front mount will be very tight, I may not run one. Or maybe a solid mount? My VQ Sentra has 3/4 mounts made from Delrin and it's not bad at all, I've daily'd it. The big stock bushing won't fit, that's for sure. I'd need to source a cheap low profile mount.

Hanging the front engine mount under the core support like the stock Neon runs into the crank sensor.

Notched the subframe and trimmed a lip on the rad cradle to eliminate all contact

Did most of a left side mount.. Below is unmodified vs what I did

Basically, I cut the bushing out, flipped it upside down, cut the extra bits off, flattened the angled bit, and attached everything to the frame rail with some pre-existing M8x1.25 holes

Still want to box it in more, add 2-3 more bolts in a larger diameter, and paint it.

Ordered some 1.8L Sentra engine mounts off Rock Auto to chop up for the right side mount. It's -50 deg with the wind here and I don't feel like hitting up the junkyard.

Thinking of adding a few torque mounts in a few other spots to keep movement down since I'm just using stock mounts so far. Maybe down where the AC compressor used to be, and off the passenger strut tower. Hockey pucks look awfully close in diameter to some of the mounts, I might try to incorporate some of those.

Engine mounts didn't make it in time for the weekend, so I pulled apart the interior instead.

Pulled out the evaporator. I'd like to run the wiring inside the passenger side of the firewall and the hole for the A/C lines is about the right spot. I'd like to keep the heater unit as it's not much weight and makes a big difference for usability where I live. Plus legality. Thinking of cutting out the big empty evaporator box and rigging a small duct between the blower and the heater core.

Also put some corded 215/45/16 Rivals on my free Sebring wheels and test fit them.

There's just millimeters of clearance between the trailing arm and wheel/tire. Strut perch clearance is pretty tight too.

I have to commit to how far I'm going with this....do I want to try and keep it SMF class legal and leave the interior full weight? Do I keep a middle ground and remove all the sound insulation, padding, and airbags but put the carpet back, keep the glove box, etc to make it semi streetable? Or go all out and cut every ounce. I am still planning on driving this 6000kms to the Challenge and back at some point.

Also have to decide how I'm wiring it. Keep the full Neon wiring for everything not running the engine, or convert it all to Nissan. I think I want to keep the Neon wiring for lights/wipers/heater because I'm still using the Neon column.

Chipping away at the wiring.

Converted the Altima dash and engine room harness from this

To this

Also got en ebay aluminium radiator. The rad that came with the car is completely rotten and I don't think I can make an Altima one fit based on Rock Auto dimentions. I have my doubts this one will be enough, but maybe. This one at least can have the outlets and such moved, although I'll have to pay someone to do this. Currently it's a tight fit with the length of the lower outlet.

Funny side note, this is the second time I've had the wrong item shipped to me for this build. First time was some incorrect rod ends, and with the radiator I was sent a knock off Mugen spoiler for a Honda.  I wonder if I can use them to my advantage in the budget....

Also started figuring out how to run the clutch pedal. The Neon has a cable setup with the actuation happening above the pivot point, the Altima is hydraulic with the pivot above the actuation point.

Option #1 is to mount the Altima master to the Neon pedal on the inside, facing backwards.

The tape measure says it should clear the dash support bar, the only interferance might be a heater duct which I'm very okay with. The negatives are possibly difficult to bleed with the mounting angle, and possibly harder to service.

Option #2 is to cut both pedals up and mount the master cylinder conventionally.

It's also a very tight fit with the strut tower. The master would have to go down 3" or so from here as well.

I'm not sure if I'd use the Neon pedal and flip the pivot and actuation points around, or straighten and shorten the Altima pedal and hang it off the Neon brake assembly.

Suggestions?

Altima pedals are about 1" longer (13" vs 12")

Altima has about 1 3/4" from pivot to actuation point

Neon is about 2"

Been doing a bit more thinkin with the clutch pedal.

Clutch master is simply too long to fit anywhere other than right beside the brake booster. This is up against the strut tower here

I could use a 88-91 Prelude clutch master which happens to be the same 5/8" bore and I've got 4 of them sitting in my garage

Or maybe use the 88-91 Prelude pedal assembly, it uses a linkage to put the clutch master on the other side of the brakes? It's pictured below on the right

But then I might have to give up the heater, or at least move it since the heater core lines are right there too.

Leaning towards using the Altima clutch master mounted under the dash off the Neon pedal. The largest concern I have there is the lack of an over-center spring.

I've also trimmed down the Neon front chassis harness from this

to this

Hit the junkyard today because I haven't been in months. Had a surprising amount of vehicles still there from the fall.

I spotted a Sentra Spec V and went to work grabbing one of the final pieces to the puzzle I really wanted.

Before shot. Someone had done some minor picking of the intake and some electrical

I brought all my electric impacts but forgot the batteries. blush So all hand tools today. Dropped the transmission and split the case

I also forgot a punch so I couldn't get the roll pins on the shift forks out.  I committed a sin and gave the cast aluminum forks a few whacks with a hammer to shatter them, that gave me enough clearance to wiggle out the LSD!

I had no idea what I would be charged for it. Worst case I'd buy the whole transmission for $155 , but I was hoping the counter girl didn't know exactly what it was and I'd get charged less.

I also picked up the front engine mount from the Spec V and the passenger engine mount off the base Sentra beside it. You can see those sitting on the parcel shelf in my selfie shot.

Here's my total:

$50 after tax for the LSD and both engine mounts! I was so stoked! The ECM I also purchased is not for the Challenge car but a customer car at work.

Been a bit distracted by motorcycles now that it's warmed up a bit.

A buddy was kind enough to give me a hand cutting a windshield out of a Neon at the junkyard. We used a box cutter to start, and guitar strings for the rest.

Also snagged a non-AC heater box and dash trim panel, an OBD2 bluetooth module, keys, and some sort of button or dimmer for an interior light setup

Junkyard charged me $100 for everything, but didn't put in a price breakdown, just a list of what I got and a total. Their website shows windshields at $60, so if I don't have to claim the windshield on the budget that means $40 for the AC delete stuff. Not sure if that's worth the budget hit.

It does save about 5lbs over the blower assembly with the condenser box (with condenser already removed) which is crazy.

Blower assembly with empty condenser box 8.92lbs

Non-AC version of the same thing 4.18lbs

Heater core and blend/mode door assembly 6.17lbs

So the complete heater system without AC is barely over 10lbs plus the ducting and controls. Very light.

Stock dash assembly, with wiring, support bar, no airbags

Not much to cut out there. I weighted the dash support bar, it's just over 20lbs and there's nothing there to trim that I can see. I'm guessing the pad is 15lbs and wiring 5lbs.

Trimmed wiring out of the dash harness.  Deleted the audio system completely. Still have to add in the Nissan wiring overtop, and integrate the Altima gauges.

Little update.

My collection of engine mounts.

Starting from top left, that's a front mount from a 01-06 Sentra SE-R, then top middle is the stock 02-06 Altima right side mount, top left is a 01-06 Sentra 1.8L right side mount, middle right is a 95?-03 Maxima right side mount, bottom two are front and rear from the 04 Altima donor, and middle is the right side mount from an '08ish Lancer base model.

I ended up using the Lancer mount as the base of my right side mount. I only used the bushing half of the mount, and shaved the sides of the center sleeve down a bit too. Rough idea

End product. It attaches at 5 mounts vs the stock 3

Before welding it all up I got the engine as square as I could in the engine bay

Next I moved on to figuring out how to make the cable clutch pedals hydraulic.

I'm trying to mount the Altima master cylinder flipped backwards and under the dash, rather than graft the Altima pedals into the Neon or try to make a clutch master cylinder fit between the firewall and driver's strut tower. This means cutting a bit of dash structure to make nice angles for the pushrod.

I'm sinking it further down than I initially planned. Just one of those things where I spent about 3hrs looking at it and slowly cutting away more and more until it got to the above. I'm going to mount it to the dash frame rather than the chassis for serviceability.

Finished the clutch master mount. Attached to the dash frame rather than the firewall/steering column support.

Put the non-AC heater box assembly in. You can see the clutch master bolted to the dash frame

Made a pedal mount for the drive by wire pedal to bolt into the neon location. Metal is from a scrap subframe.

Ideally it would be further up and closer to the center of the car, but the heater box is in the way. I'll see how it feels, if needed I'll make pedal covers that shift it over.

Left work early one afternoon to get my first Covid shot, which gave me time to run across the city and get some cheap steel from the cut off bins. They have this cool scale they use to determine cost. 17lbs of steel, $1.60/lb.

Used it to make a shifter mounting plate

The Altima shifter (plastic) is much taller than the Neon setup.

This means there's no way it'll fit under the stock console, which is a shame. On the other hand, that console is 5lbs.

So this brings me to the first start.

Did a code check first, wasn't getting power to the ECU. Connector wasn't fully seated under the glove box.  Next I couldn't get it to crank reliably with jumper cables/booster packs/battery chargers so I just plopped a battery directly on top of the trans. Then the ignition switch flew apart in my hands, so I grabbed a spare from the junk drawer of my toolbox. I'll probably end up wiring it to the Neon switch, since I have the Neon column.

Then I forgot I had removed the crank sensor, so put that back in. Then I wasn't getting fuel pump. That turned out to be the aftermarket immobilizer I had cut out when I removed the stock engine, just had to re-attach the wires together. Ran the pump a bit and got some pretty nasty looking fuel.

It cleared up after that initial junk that was sitting in the lines. Not sure how old the fuel in the tank is, minimum 1yr, likely 2+

Then this happened:

So now that it ran, time to get it moving.

Ditched the stock altima clutch line setup with crazy loops and different diameters. Went to a one piece line line off a wrecked rear axle beam from the scrap pile at work.

So now I don't need to have push it in and out of the shop every time I want to work on it.

Next steps are to clean up the wiring so I can close the hood. I'll need to mount 3 fuse boxes, a battery, and run an intake. Might relocate the Altima IPDM (CAN controlled fuse/relay center) to under the dash. I need to get a small battery, probably pick up a 51R battery from the junkyard. They sell for $30. Might put it behind the bumper, ahead of the front wheels. The passenger side currently has the Neon evap cannister, which I might not use.  The drivers side has the washer tank, which I also don't need.

I need to make an intake, I'll have to scrounge around for that. Might just use PCV plumbing.

The under dash wiring obviously needs a bunch of clean up and wrapping too.

Then I'll focus on finishing the engine mounts, mounting a radiator, and making an exhaust.

This is all darned impressive, Sir. 

Do carry on.

I've been forgetting to check up on this for the past year, so I was treated to massive progress updates! There needs to be more eyes on this because you are doing amazing work. I'm excited to this true grassroots build at the Challenge. I love the axle/control arm junkyarding solution to this swap, and the flipped clutch MC mounting. This should be a 13s car easily. 

ok, yeah, I haven't been watching this build NEARLY close enough. awesome work.

Have you installed the LSD yet? I'm very interested to see if the spec v LSD is a drop in to a 3.5 MT. (maybe everyone already knows it is and I'm just not up to speed on nissan transmissions). 

This is the type of stuff I come to GRM to see. The amount of OEM parts used to make all of this stuff work together really blows my mind. Keep up the good work! 

This is crazy work and I complain about my Altima SER Being a pain.

FYI I have gotten the ROM-Raider SW to work on my Altima but it's my daily driver so I'm not messing with it yet 

Agree that this is a stellar thread. I’m hoping to be in the VQ club here soon as well. 

Thanks for the kind words guys. It helps, I've spent the past couple of evenings mostly staring at the car being indecisive about what to do next and not getting anything done.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

LSD isn't installed yet, I'm planning on doing that once I blow the whole car apart for paint. It should drop right in, I've had a 5 speed apart before and tried sticking Sentra Spec V guts inside it. Only failed because the 6 speed needs three shift rails vs the 5 speed's two, and the casings are not fully machined for them. 99% sure the diff will drop in.

In reply to pk386 :

I'm interested, what year is your Altima? I really need to put some effort into trying to understand how ROM Raider works, because that could be a game-changer.

Overview of underhood now. Re-routed the IPDM (smart fuse box) to inside the cabin, under the glove box. Shortened the intake with duct tape. Hood closes now.

Pulled the front bumper off and deleted the washer tank. Trying to come up with a solution for space underhood. A group 51 battery could be made to squeeze behind the bumper. Relocating to the trunk seems costly to pull off, between the cost of making a sealed battery box and 10 ft of 1/0 welding cable.

Picked up another set of Tein coilovers from FB marketplace for $80, he even delivered. They're for 08-14 Subaru STi fitment. One of the fronts is leaking a bit, I was hoping they could be used as-is or I found a DIY rebuild video. Unfortunately, after taking it apart I found it's totally blown and these particular models have a crimped on cap so they cannot be rebuilt. Shame, because the lower perch width matched the Sentra knuckles perfectly, plus they unthread so I could weld them up real hot and not worry about damaging the dampers. The top hats are nice and large similar to the Neon, and the pillowballs don't have any play. I may use them for parts if the budget allows.

I think next step is to get some angle iron to build a battery tray. Also need to tear Altima #2 apart. I'm currently up $400 on this car and it still runs and drives.

That's a few week old picture, it now looks a lot more gross because the tree it's under is infested with worms and berkeley working in that mess.

Random thoughts:

Intake. I have very limited space for a filter, and can't run it down in front because the battery is probably in the way. If I could run a half radiator that would work, but I'd like more cooling capacity. I'd like to make a NACA duct in the hood to feed it cool air, but I'm concerned with how that might mess with the MAF signal. Even without a ram-air setup the short length of the intake might disrupt the MAF signal.

Engine management. Car is running on the '04 electrics. The '04 engine needs timing chains. The '04 engine is rated at 245hp. I have the complete '08 engine and electrics available for $0 budget hit. These are rated at 270hp. These engines do have a common issue with blowing out an internal gasket in the oil galley, I don't know if this one has it. I don't think I've seen one blow up due to the lower oil pressure, but if I'm going to flogging it and hitting it with lots of nitrous I want all the oil pressure I can get. Aftermaket gasket is $60 USD plus shipping to fix. Junkyard timing chains for the '04 engine are $??. Probably cheap.

I can swap in the '08 engine and run the '04 electrics for a $100 USD budget hit for cam signal inverters.

I can possibly also swap the whole car over to '08 engine and electrics. I have a manual flywheel compatible with the '08 ECU I picked up last summer for $27 budget hit. I would also have to FMV the Ikey since the '08 didn't come with a key. $20 or so for a used key on eBay.  It would be cool to have a push to start Neon.  But the '08 electrics are a lot more fussy because the CAN system is more advanced and I wouldn't have a speedometer as that signal comes from the ABS system, which I'm not swapping.

I think I need to stick a mechanical oil pressure gauge on the '08 to see if the oil galley gasket is blown out before I make it a non-runner.

Brakes. The Neon has a goofy setup where all 4 brake lines attach directly to the master cylinder with inline proportioning valves. The stock Neon calipers had a 54mm piston, the Sentra calipers I put on have a 57mm piston. Not sure how much softer this will make the pedal, mathematically it's 5%? The Neon master cylinder is about 13/16", there's an upgrade from a Ford Tbird with a 1" bore but that's overshooting the mark a bit. I'd go for a 7/8" or 15/16" if I could. The Ford 1" upgrade would only be about a $15 budget hit.

In reply to Run_Away :

RE: Intake. I like the battery location behind the front bumper, if you can pull that off. It would help a little bit with weight distribution for launching and you could put the air filter where the battery is currently. My go-to air filter is Denso 143-2041. Cheap, OEM quality, and fits inside 3" hose. For reference here's what my intake ended up looking like. I did have MAF issues immediately after the swap, but eventually found a junkyard unit that worked better.

RE: Engine Management: I was able to keep speedometer with my '03 CAN by keeping the ABS module. I opened it up and deleted all the heavy solenoids and crap, but kept the little computer inside hooked up to the wiring. However I also retained all 4 wheel speed sensors in my swap. I do not know if you need all 4 sensors + ABS module to keep speedometer, or just the front 2. 

Is there any sign anything is actually wrong with the '08 engine? I guess it's a "devil you know vs. the devil you don't" situation with regards to timing chains vs potential oil issues. On one hand, your '04 engine has an issue for sure, while the '08 might be perfectly fine and nets you more power. I know it's a lot of work, but if you're blowing it apart anyway for paint I'd be tempted to swap it.

I like putting a pressure gauge on the 08 to see. Esp if it still runs just sitting where it is. 

Any chance the ECU knows oil pressure and you just need to hit it with a bluetooth obd2 dongle and something like torque app to read it? (looks like you might have access to better computer reading solutions than that anyway haha)