Mid-forties. Stretching routines. Attempting to keep up with teens. You're speaking my language.
Mid-forties. Stretching routines. Attempting to keep up with teens. You're speaking my language.
mazdeuce - Seth said:759NRNG (Forum Partidario) said:I'm sorry but I've never seen Valetino Rossi.....Kenny Roberts .....Eddie Lawson...Freddy Spencer....Kevin Schwantz....Wayne Rainey ..........even Colin Edwards DRAG ELBOW.....what is this your're doing..just askin'
be safe.....no more broken clavicals .. OK?
All right, here is an article that goes over the history of knee down. Jarno Saarinen was the first who realy used and popularized knee way off the bike, but it was Kenny Roberts who used the body position hard enough that he had to modify his suits to keep from wearing through them, and then when he started using knee sliders proper he was dragging knee on the deck through corners. He was dominant enough that everyone sat up and took notice and taped things to their suit to give it a try, and the body position was faster.
So that's knee, but how did we get to elbow?
The first rider to be known to use the style was Jean Ruggia riding 250's in the late 80's. It didn't catch on. Max Biaggi did it as well on 250's sometimes, but again, didnt' catch on. The point where elbow down becomes a "thing" and everyone makes sure they have elbow sliders is when Mark Marquez starts doing it and beating everyone all the time in 2013. This isn't just a "Marquez is the best and everyone copied him" thing (which they kind of did) but it also has a LOT to do with tire technology and especially electronics that were happening right about that time. Elbow down, like knee down, just sort of happens as a consequence of leaning the bike and moving way way over to shift the center of gravity. Modern tires, even the ones on my tiny Honda allow and even encourage significant lean angles. Couple that with modern electronics that nearly (but not completely) eliminate high sides, and the last 10 years in MotoGP have seen some significant changes. But......Moto3 riders who don't have those electronics do it as well, don't they? Yes, because at the very highest level it has proven just a bit faster. In fact, if you watch a modern race there will be a couple of corners in the track where a train of riders all with elbow down are riding around. And here is Rossi, elbow down, becasue even he has had to modify his riding style to keep up with the kids half his age who are riding.
So why am I riding elbow down? Mostly because it's neat. The body position required means your shoulder and head are very low (which is the center of mass benefit) and it feels like you're right at the same eye level as the brake rotor. My fast laps are still elbow up, but by working with a position that's even more extreme, my body is more "relaxed" when I'm trying to go fast and that helps me to go fast. I can relax my arms and hands and elbows instead of straining to be over as far as possible because I've been spending time over farther than that. The good riders I know echo what world level riders say, and that is that they watch what works for others and play on the bike and continually refine their interaction with the bike in an attempt to go faster.
I put my bike on the scales at the kart track the other day and it's 175lbs with fuel. That's almost exactly what I weigh with leathers on. Half of the mass riding down the track is big squishy me and I have the opportunity to move that mass around as I see fit to change the center of gravity to make myself faster. Even my daughter, who is probably 75lbs lithter than me with gear, is plaing with body position and finding that dropping a shoulder very low is advantagous in certain corners.
Elbow down is a thing, but only in the past 10 years or so. Everyone doing elbow down is within the past 5 years, maybe. All of the young kids are riding in that style on their small bikes so I expect it will be around for a long time or until a faster style comes along, and then everyone will adopt that.
I learnt something today.......thanks.
mazdeuce - Seth said:
Unreasonable levels of both weird and cool in this pic.
Done with the endurance season. We had rain, a new rider who started riding bike two weeks ago after watching us for the better part of a year, and all sorts of fun. We finished 2/6 in class and maybe 10th overall? Mostly because we stayed on the bike in the rain. Gotta stay on the bike. Short season what with Covid and all the cancelling and rescheduling, but we finished 1st or 2nd in all of the five rounds and won the championship. Official awards at the sprints next month.
So now we're just getting laps in with friends and continuing to learn about the new bikes. Today was the first day in months that it wasn't brutally hot. Still hot, but a lot more pleasant.
Two things about this photo. 1. Kid#3 is going to start autocross after the first of the year as part of her drivers education, just like all of my kids. We'll probably have to work on lots of stuff, but I think she has the whole eyes up thing nailed. 2. She makes these bikes look fairly normal size.
A bunch of you have met me, shook my hand, hung out, I'm not short, but nobody has ever accused me of being a big guy. When I'm on the bikes, they do not look normal size.
And lastly, I reclaimed the family lap record today, for about 15 minutes. Victory is fleeting.
What is the hp on these track monsters may I ask?
mazdeuce - Seth said:Two things about this photo. 1. Kid#3 is going to start autocross after the first of the year as part of her drivers education, just like all of my kids. We'll probably have to work on lots of stuff, but I think she has the whole eyes up thing nailed. 2. She makes these bikes look fairly normal size.
A bunch of you have met me, shook my hand, hung out, I'm not short, but nobody has ever accused me of being a big guy. When I'm on the bikes, they do not look normal size.
And lastly, I reclaimed the family lap record today, for about 15 minutes. Victory is fleeting.
Quoted just for the awesome photos. This looks like the most possible fun. Wish I had a kart track nearby. Of course, then I'd need a truck and trailer, then I'd be in real trouble.
Keep doing this. I like watching.
759NRNG (Forum Partidario) said:What is the hp on these track monsters may I ask?
8.5 thundering shrieking horsepower. They hit the rev limiter at a bit over 11k, but power has fallen off by 10.5k anyway. They're monsters.
In reply to barefootskater :
You're probably lucky you don't live by me. This is Scott. He drives karts at our local track. He made the twin mistakes of talking to us and being about my size. I had him try on my spare leathers. And then scrape together gear for a "test" on the XR100. And then I parked that bike in his garage at the kart track so he could ride whenever. Then he endurance raced with us. He's not quite four weeks into this whole motorcycle thing and he owns the leathers, good boots and gloves, and he's bike shopping.
I'm the best/worst kind of friend.
mazdeuce - Seth said:759NRNG (Forum Partidario) said:What is the hp on these track monsters may I ask?
8.5 thundering shrieking horsepower. They hit the rev limiter at a bit over 11k, but power has fallen off by 10.5k anyway. They're monsters.
Will a Daytona Anima 190 fit that frame?
What tires are you running on the xr. There is a cheap one local and they race on a cart track local also.
In reply to nderwater :
No. Those are based on the Honda horizontal single architecture. They XR100 is a vertical cylinder and they don't fit. The Daytona would fit in Kid#3's XR70 based bike though, which we have considered. Lack of a real front brake becomes a concern with that HP.
They do make a very nice four valve head for the XR100 motor which is how you build "big" power in them, which is 18-20hp. Unfortunately those heads don't fit in the NSF100 frame.
Professor_Brap (Forum Supporter) said:What tires are you running on the xr. There is a cheap one local and they race on a cart track local also.
I run the Bridgestone Battlax BT45. The guys who race them in Ohio have a special tire (that I can't remember off hand) that they got a manufacturer to import for them that is supposed to work well and be quite a bit cheaper. They have grids 30 bikes deep in the XR100 classes though, it's a different scene up there compared to Texas. Mini racing in general is very regional.
So I caught the Moto GP at Catalan ESP and there is a indicator now that shows the riders' lean angle....62.3 degree's and way up on the side wall while laying your forearm flat with the track surface.....Woof!!!!
The race season is almost over. One more event in another 10 days. Cooler weather has lots of people coming out to the track. More fun and less suffering. I'm the guy in the yellow helmet, my kid is the small one in the black helmet and white leathers on the matching bike.
This thread is bad for me. I need this in my life. Time to see if there is anything similar in Las Vegas where I could rent.
2:22 is where your daughter passes like you're standing still.
I still can't quite get my head around how much street-cred she would get around school for being a motorcycle racer.
In reply to TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) :
Yea. It's easy to dismiss it as a power to weight thing (since she's a hummingbird with arms) but we've looked at the data a few times and most of her advantage is that she gets on the power WAY sooner than I do and that carries all the way down the straight. Even thought I KNOW what she's doing, I still can't quite do it. She's better than me.
As far as being cool, I do know that she has about all the self confidence you would want a high school girl to have. Any more would be annoying. 
barefootskater said:This thread is bad for me. I need this in my life. Time to see if there is anything similar in Las Vegas where I could rent.
Sorry? I feel like I should appologize. One you know this exists, is kind of messes with your head.
mazdeuce - Seth said:In reply to TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) :
As far as being cool, I do know that she has about all the self confidence you would want a high school girl to have. Any more would be annoying.
When I started high school I was tiny, nerdy, and had giant glasses. I needed all the swagger I could get, and I didn't have a drop of it. I'm really sensitive to bullying too. Once - as a full on adult - skipped buying a Protege5 from a salesman who I realized was one of my middle school bullies. I always want kids to feel comfortable in their own skin.
I'm actually super happy that my younger daughter has been able to do varsity cross country this fall, where every girl on the team is rail thin and long-legged just like her. She's with her tribe.
mazdeuce - Seth said:
One you know this exists, is kind of messes with your head.
Indeed. Ok guys, help me think of creative ways to convince my wife that getting one of these is a good idea:
In reply to nderwater :
Those are neat. I haven't ridden one but I have sat on them. They're almost exactly the size of the NSF and feel similar though the handlebars may be a bit lower. The 190 version is a bit of a beast. They're much more of an adult sized Ohvale. I don't think I can talk you out of it, but I'm also not sure I can provide an convincing argument other than falling off one of these is almost certainly cheaper/safer than falling off a big bike. And you can carry them on a hitch hauler, no trailer needed.
TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) said:mazdeuce - Seth said:In reply to TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) :
As far as being cool, I do know that she has about all the self confidence you would want a high school girl to have. Any more would be annoying.
When I started high school I was tiny, nerdy, and had giant glasses. I needed all the swagger I could get, and I didn't have a drop of it. I'm really sensitive to bullying too. Once - as a full on adult - skipped buying a Protege5 from a salesman who I realized was one of my middle school bullies. I always want kids to feel comfortable in their own skin.
I'm actually super happy that my younger daughter has been able to do varsity cross country this fall, where every girl on the team is rail thin and long-legged just like her. She's with her tribe.
I've breathed a sigh of relief each time my kids have found their people.
Back to tiny bike racing: what's the learning curve look like for inexperienced middle-aged folk? Beyond the obligatory collar-bone break?
I know there's a local group around here doing this kind of racing, but I've not ever done motorcycles. Lots and lots of bike riding - both mtb and road - but nothing with a motor. Is the lack of youthful muscle-memory a deal-breaker?
TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) said:Back to tiny bike racing: what's the learning curve look like for inexperienced middle-aged folk? Beyond the obligatory collar-bone break?
I know there's a local group around here doing this kind of racing, but I've not ever done motorcycles. Lots and lots of bike riding - both mtb and road - but nothing with a motor. Is the lack of youthful muscle-memory a deal-breaker?
Read my mind..
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