1964 Spitfire build thread

For a race only car I'd stick with the rough shell you already have. No point hunting down a nice Mk 1 body just to beat it up, all you need is a '50/50' (looks good at 50 feet at 50 MPH) car.

Body differences: Mk I, II and III (1962-1970) all use the small taillights. The Mk I and II 1962-1967 have the bumpers 'low' (under the front turn signal lights), the Mk III (1968-1970) have the bumpers 'high' (above the front turn signal lights). The doors etc are all the same except the Mk III cars had the 'anti burst' outside door handles. Mk IV and 1500 (1971-1980) all have the 'flat tail' style body witht e big taillights and very little interchanges. But come to think of it, a door from a 1980 will hang right on a 1962 and the body lines etc will match up (the door latch mechanisms won't, though).

Woohoo parts are starting to get in. I got an old Mini MS and taillights. And I am about send money for GT6 front uprights and front brakes. With the Mini MS, I can control the fuel with that and run the ignition off the distributor correct?

Ok so lots of pictures of rust.  Not sure what to call this panel but right in front of door on side of firewall.  Door sill. The other looks ok from the outside but I doubt it really is. Trunk area. Trunk area again  Rear wheel well Behind passenger seat  Behind driver's side door.

 Inside passenger's side door  Floor board  Fiberglass  More fiberglass  Friend's car where I am working.

Also the roll bar came out today and the trunk was cleaned out. I found a brand new head gasket and intake gasket in there. As well as a bunch of useless rusted parts like a air cleaner cover for an old Ford.

Rust sucks. But on a Spitfire, it's not the end of the world due to the body on frame construction. The rockers do have a lot to do with fore/aft stiffness and how well the doors close so I would put the effort into fixing them properly but the rest of it is no biggie from a structural standpoint.

For real stiffness, a properly designed roll bar or cage is the secret. I went through a LOT of head scratching before I finalized the Abomination's roll bar design and as a result it stiffened the body tremendously, see if Toyman will send you some pics.

I am planning on doing some major work on the sills. Basically next step is weld in some bars and pull the body off.

 CASC tag. Vehicle number 5108.  Spitfire this morning.  Airborne Spitfire  Bracing welded in the car  Frame and body apart  Rear end  Double swaybars on the front.  Rear trailling links. I don't know what to think of those.  Soon to be RallyX car.

Hmm, has the swing spring setup, that's not stock on that model. Those training links (my FSM calls them radius arms) are not stock, and look dicey to me; taking a bite out of a stressed tube is no way to maintan strength. To gain clearance there for straight arms, you can simply put a spacer tube where the arm mounts to keep the tabs from crushing closed, use a longer bolt, and mount the arms to the inside of the inner tab. The flat horizontal tabs sticking forward from the uprights where the radius arms attach are not stock, they were probably used for a camber compensator. Double sway bars? Why, when bars are widely available in sizes up to 1"? Looks like someone torched a section out of the front frame crossmember between the frame rails. It doesn't add that much stiffness, but hey, a Spitfire can use all the chassis stiffness you can manage, so I'd be looking to put that back. The steering rack mounts and sway bar mounts look like solid pieces of Delrin. The left front motor mount is not stock, wonder what motor was in the car?

Interesting ....

The car has the 1296 motor which isn't stock. I was wondering about the spring setup. I knew the trailing arms were stock when I saw the rod ends.

I would strongly reconsider doing any major rust remediation with the body off the frame. I've read of many who have done that, thinking it would be easier, only to find the mounts won't line up when they were done. Yes, they installed bars to support the tub as well. Don't underestimate the flimsiness of a Spitfire tub...

That car needs SO much work, I think I'd look for another tub... You're looking at probably close to $1000 worth of repair panels, if not more... Anyone who has seen my 1800ES would be surprised to see me write that, but Spitfires grow on trees compared to old Volvos.

I like the optimism of ordering a programmable ECU at this stage. That's a lot of rust.

Those double sway bars: damn they wanted the thing to push, didn't they? FWIW: the best handling AX Spitfires I've seen have massively stiff front springs and minimal sway bars, making the car corner very 'flat'. Probably not a real good idea for road racing, though. The front springs look a bit spindly.

Hard to tell for sure from the pictures but it looks to me like the steering rack may have been moved back. Stock Spitfires have the rack too far forward making for some really weird Ackerman. On the stock setup, if viewed from above the tie rods sweep back, when they really should be either straight or sweep slightly forward. Problem is, when in the best location the rack occupies roughly the same spot as the #1 connecting rod journal and the rod journal wins that fight. Unless the engine is moved back... As always, check the rule book first!

That radius arm doesn't give me the warm fuzzies either. It looks like they were notched for tire clearance. If you look at the 'box member' at the rear of the floor pan, you should see 2 rubber plugs on either side of the driveshaft tunnel. Those are the radius arm mount points for the GT6 suspension meaning you can easily move the mount points inboard. You'd need to make new radius arms but that's not a big deal since there are already rod ends in place. It's not possible to really fark up the weird Spitfire suspension geometry any more than the factory did so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

Early Spits had shorter axles and rear springs than the late cars so I'd say that's probably a late differential (4 mount bolts for the spring clamp, early diffs had 6) with most likely a GT6 rear spring. That was a common modification and would not be a true 'swing spring' unless someone did a good bit of custom work back there.

Swing spring or no, you are best off limiting the downward travel of the rear axles to lessen the massive camber change under braking that Spits are capable of. The easy way is to use shocks with shorter travel, IIRC there's a Corvette rear shock from the Stingray body style that's a nearly direct bolt on that will limit the travel. Or, I've seen travel limiters made from aircraft cable and even chains. You just don't want them to droop into the area occupied by other stuff like axles etc. From the pictures, it appears this may have already been done, which is A Good Thing.

The body has already been on and off the frame several times and it is still lining up. My big worry is cutting the door sills out. I need to figure out rules stuff. Since it has racing heritage I am thinking vintage racing but I know really nothing about the rules for vintage racing. I know it is a lot of rust but I am not to worried. I haves full welding shop available for use, plenty of time and a set of body hammers. also I really doubt I will find a MK1 body shell in better shape. As far as shocks, I was thinking about motorcycle shocks but I need to look at rules.

Well, as mentioned over on the CMS forums, the rules for vintage allowances varies wildly. IMO, check what groups run in your area, then see what their requirements are. The front shocks, being an OE coil-over, is somewhat free, but you may be stuck with the transverse spring in the rear under any set of vintage rules.

My point about the body and frame mainly applies when doing major work that could affect the body mounts - like replacing the sill panels where you're cutting away a major portion of the tub's structure. I mention it because I've seen it happen to guys who thought they had taken the proper precautions.

I will probably do the door sills while the body is bolted onto the frame. I was thinking on the rear removing the spring from the motorcycle shocks and keeping the leaf spring.

In reply to Curmudgeon: Note the 4 bolt swing spring mounting box bolted to the top of the diff, ie it is a swing spring. Fixed springs just use a simple flat plate on top. One of the cheapest easiest ways to get custom radius arms with heims is just order them from the Coleman catalog in the desired length. The Spitfire pan already sits over the rack, so moving it back may involve surgery to the oil pan for clearance. OTOH, if you must also raise the rack, then it becomes a clearance issue with #1 conrod. IMHO swing spring is an inherent compromise. Better to have fixed spring and seperate camber compensator. This allows you to tune the CC independently of the spring, ie pre-load by changing the length of the links from CC tip to axle carrier. The limiting straps/chains/cables have an inherent problem, in that when they reach the limit of downward travel, there is a sudden change in effective wheel spring rate, ie, no spring at all except for the tire deflection. This can lead to some abrupt behavior when traversing bumps or making sudden left/right transitions. Maybe OK in a pure racecar where you will tune the suspension for a particular track or weekend, as long as the driver is aware of it, and prepared to compensate.

Carter

So the car has been stalled getting the Supra for the Challenge. I am about to order the door sills for the car. And I just picked up the JK Jackson 1500 with Weber DCOEs that was in the old GRM Spitfire.

This is making me want to dig my Spit out of the garage and start on it. Mine is a white 64 also bu tI have owned it since 89, man that is a long time.

In reply to 93EXCivic:

I used to know of a GT6 in a old junkyard in Cedartown, GA that is probably still there....

I started pulling apart the front end this past weekend.  I know the steering mounting isn't stock but is it in the stock location? Also did this a while ago but made new tow hooks for the front since they were bent.

When you do the inner-outer rockers: get the doors to fit right, body on the chassis, very well supported at at least 5 points. Remove doors and either weld in a couple spreader bars in each door opening or bolt small pieces of plate in the jambs and weld the spreaders to those.

You NEED to maintain the hinge-striker orientation and distance while you're cutting the old sills out and installing the new ones.

Fit the new parts carefully, imparting as little force as possible to get the parts to hold alignment. Once everything fits, tack the inner rockers in then the outers.

Just use enough carefully considered tacks to hold everything aligned, then do the other side of the car

Then put tacks between the tacks, then connect short beads of weld - in other words, don't start seam welding at one end of the car and aim for the other end - you'll end up w/ a banana shaped car.

It's a slow process welding your way all over the whole assemblies 'til it's done, but when you're done and you remove the door aperture spreader and upon reinstallation the doors still fit - it's worth the effort.

And yes, I've done it both ways. This IS easier and faster all-in.

this looks familiar , lol.

anyhow, I did a fairly basic-ish rebuild of a GT6 a few years ago and have a pretty long build thread on it, in case you want to check it out for ideas, etc. I have some old GT6 stuff sitting around too (some glass, doors, suspension parts, etc) in case you need anything. Hit me up.

http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1206842587/

josh

Bumping this up so we can move it to the new project car/build thread area. Hopefully we see some more updates soon, too.

OK so I moved the car from my workshop to the garage last Saturday. Here is how it sits now.  The front suspension is disassembled. Plan now is to disassemble the pieces off the body, dissemble the parts off the frame and strip the paint of the frame and suspension and then begin reassembly. I am planning on finding a parts car with hopefully a better body. This body is more rust then metal.