The 'Milburn Fiero'

Stampie said:

AAZCD (Forum Supporter) said:

Stampie said:

In reply to AAZCD (Forum Supporter) :

Just remember that you have a max recoup of $1000 and can only recoup up to what you paid for the item.  Hate to see you hit budget problems because of a simple mistake.

Yes and the $1,000 is the easy part. All the trading, self-trading, FMV, and "Oh, look at this cabinet that I found by a dumpster", is where the problems of an unlimited "$2,000" budget begin. I can do the 3500 and transmission at the purchase price of the car, at FMV, trade them for the current (bad) engine or the nice racing seat at FMV.  Should I trade one high end wheel for four beater wheels from a VW Jetta? Maybe throw my nitrous system from the 2019 car on there in self-trade for extra parts that came with the Fiero or use cash from the budget...  Figuring out what tactics to use to optimize the budget is where all the trouble begins. I even remember a rules thread that discussed trading labor for parts and I'm pretty sure it concluded with Tom agreeing that it was legit - and is a way that can add more to a car that is already at $2,000.

Not complaining or planning to game the system, but Budget seems like the most complicated part of a Challenge build.

Budget can be simple like our Buick this year if you aren't trying to hit top 1/3.  If you want top 1/3 then you need to get your budget skills strong.  If that's just making good deals or knowing how to use the rules.  I've actually bought a vehicle for $250 then once I did the mock budget realized that I couldn't build the car for the Challenge and sold it.

Some year I want to get a cheap flight to Florida and pick up the first good lookin' $1,000 car I find, take a day or two to get it prepped and run it in the Challenge. Maybe team up with white_fly.  That will be fun - For fun. For 2022, I'm spending a year building a 'racecar' and trailering it 1,100 miles there and 1,100 miles back, probably taking a week off work. I'm barely a 'Motorsports' guy, but with this effort it's a competition and aiming for the middle of the top 1/3. Maybe even bring it back in 2026? to compete with Monzora.

AAZCD (Forum Supporter) said:

Some year I want to get a cheap flight to Florida and pick up the first good lookin' $1,000 car I find, take a day or two to get it prepped and run it in the Challenge. Maybe team up with white_fly.  That will be fun - For fun.

I'm thinking about that for my first Challenge where I'm the car owner, and not just someone helping out with the wrenching.

Crown Vic, get my Auto-X runs in, then park it up front and hang out and ride with whoever wants to take it around the course.  Let everyone have a turn if they want.

AAZCD (Forum Supporter) said:

 

Maybe even bring it back in 2026? to compete with Monzora.

That is an admirable goal.

RandolphCarter said:

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to AAZCD (Forum Supporter) :

I'm now picturing some C'était un rendez-vous type footage, but instead of the soundscape of a Ferrari against an early Paris morning en-route to meet a beautiful woman, it's the soundtrack of a a GM v6 while dragging this hulk to its demise. 

Thanks. Now I have the siren song of the baaahhhhhAHHHHHHHHHHuuuuuhhhhhhggghh of GM V6 power stuck in my head.

Ugh. That perfectly captures the sound they make. I strongly dislike it.

Budgets be damned, it's still a fun project and if you communicated with "Those In Powarr" I bet that it would be welcome at nearly any GRM event. 

Makes me almost want to defrost my iceberg'd GM vehicle and get back to working on it.

In reply to QuasiMofo (John Brown) :

Yes, It's about building and playing with a cool car. I didn't mean to go that deep into the budget rabbit hole and I'm not worried about keeping in budget - Just that a knowing how to work the '$2,000' budget can make a big difference in the car that shows up at the Challenge.

...and THIS 60 degree V6 is going to sound awesome.

So, it's sat for a month and a half with no progress while I worked on making my garage back into a useable work space. I had planned to get back to work on the swap today, but realized that I need to prep a Boxster for a buyer to pick up this weekend instead. I tightened the spark plugs back up and drove it out of the garage to park it outside for a few days (Covered). Rough on less than six cylinders, but it was better than pushing it.

In reply to AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) :

That seems to be in top 75% Challenge shape as it is.

Dropped the engine today. I'm not familiar with these, so I went slowly. It was actually very simple and it helped that the car is clean with no corrosion.

Next i put the two engines near each other and compared. First thing to notice is that the engine mounting is pretty different. Next is that the driveshafts are too long [to use in the Fiero subframe]. The transmission from the LX9 is about 3" longer. I can put the Fiero shafts into the LX9's transmission, but the wheels will be too close in for the shafts. There are a lot of ways to adapt it to work. I don't want to hack up any of the original Fiero parts unless I have to.

The Buick subframe is not bolt-on to the Fiero, but it is already 'in the budget'. I'm going to take a look at what will have to be modified to make it fit. It's going to give the rear wheels a wider track which I like, but the control arms and shocks are set up differently. This is going to require some trial and error, but I've seen some pretty amazing build threads on here and if I take some inspiration from what I've seen, I can make this work. Hopefully I'll get better at welding with some more practice.

Sounds like there will be some significant hacking of the Fiero but without a doubt you can do it.  Very excited

jfryjfry said:

Sounds like there will be some significant hacking of the Fiero but without a doubt you can do it.  Very excited

Jeremy, the plan is to significantly hack the Buick parts to make them into Fiero-ish parts. The Fiero subframe is basically the same as the FWD ones used in A- and X-body cars of the time. The steering tie rods are replaced with fixed length rods on the Fiero's frame. The whole drivetrain and suspension 'easily' drop out of the car as a complete unit with only the subframe (cradle) and top of the struts being hard-mounted to the chassis. The Fiero chassis should remain (mostly) unhacked.

My plan is to modify this from the Buick:

To replace the stock Fiero cradle:

As a bonus, Jeff gave me a ton of spare parts with the car that should help get the rear wheels and suspension sorted out without modifying the originals.

At the moment I have no idea what I'm doing, but by the time it's done I'll have a lot of experience.

AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:

At the moment I have no idea what I'm doing, but by the time it's done I'll have a lot of experience.

I love your attitude.

My first thought would be to cut those engine mounting brackets off the Buick subframe and graft them onto the Fiero subframe. That seems like the least work. Since the Fiero subframe bolts to the car, and the Fiero transmission (which I'm assuming you want to still use) bolts to the subframe, it seems like it would be pretty straightforward to get the 3500 engine bolted to the transmission and located where you need it to be relative to the car, then bolt the 3500's engine mounts onto the engine, bolt the cut-off brackets onto those, and add metal between the brackets and the subframe. No need for custom axles then, either. Suspension just works, geometry (while maybe not ideal to begin with, but that's another discussion) doesn't need to be re-engineered.

I'm kind of surprised that the engine mounting is so different. Stuff must have changed between the 3400 and 3500. When we swapped out the 2.8L in an '89 Beretta with a 3400 from an '99 Alero for LeMons, 2 of the 3 mounts bolted right on. The other one needed to be fabricated.

Watching with interest!

I've been working on VWs (MK4), Audis, and Porsches for quite a while. Complicated solutions to simple problems are the way.

I want to use the transmission from the Buick, but that transmission will not work on the Fiero cradle unless I use shorter shafts. I don't think I'm going to make a custom shaft and having them made is likely a budget-buster. The easy way to do this swap is probably to use the Fiero transmission and the Fiero cradle. I want to keep the original cradle intact (or acquire a second one) so that I have that as a back-up option. There's usually a couple 'project car' Fieros for sale under $1,000 within a couple hour drive of here and I may pick one up for parts after I get rid of one more parts car Boxster. Lets keep that in mind just in case....

Using the Buick cradle: It is longer and wider than the Fiero cradle. The control arms put the wheels much further forward and all of the existing bushings are shot. At first I thought of abandoning the idea, then I put it under the car and realized that rather than trying to cut and weld the cradle to fit, it could be mounted fairly easily by adding brackets to adapt it without having to re-make it.

With the cradle mounted in the car the next issue would be control arms. The Buick control arms are a different style with one horizontal mount and one vertical. Best to just use the Fiero control arms.How hard would it be to use one of the existing vertical mounts and replace the other mounting point? I'm thinking not hard. Cut the horizontal mount, weld in similar grade metal vertically, drill holes, mount the arm.

Buick Arm:

Fiero arm:

Oops, now looking at the picture of the Buick cradle under the Fiero I think I had it in there backwards. Ignore everything I just posted while I get another look and think it all through again.

Yes, it was backwards and yes, there's no way a simple adapter will make that cradle mount to the chassis. The structure where the engine mounts and the control arm positioning looks good now, but the four points that mount to the chassis are completely wrong. Can the four 'support arms' be cut off and reattached in a way that fits the Fiero? I think I'm going to find out.

Oh, wait, this thing is automatic, isn't it? Okay, using the transmission out of the Rendezvous makes a lot more sense now. I think I'm onboard with your plan, just waiting for the sparks to start flying.

In reply to obsolete :

Yes, it's an auto transmission car. Thinking about the different paths forward, I wonder if it would have been easier if I had used a manual transmission car for the swap. I did an Auto-to-Manual swap on a Honda Del Sol once and it was actually a lot simpler than the internet made it sound. Maybe after the Challenge I'll find a G6 donor with a 3.6 and 6-speed to put in there.

I'm starting a week of Day shift now, 7 am to 7 pm. That gives me time to plan and reflect rather than get a lot of work done. Standing in the garage with the car, I can get too focused/fixated on continuing down a particular path. Time away lets me see the big picture again. There are a lot of different ways to make this work. Forcing the Buick cradle into the car is probably one of the least practical ways. Reminds me of the adage about team of Audi engineers in a deep hole with a ladder, fashioning the ladder into a shovel to dig their way out.

Today my thought is that The Fiero cradle is going to work just fine. The easiest and probably most practical thing to modify for fitment is the control arms. I'm pretty sure that there is a set among the spares. What will another inch of control arm do to the camber? Can the coilovers adjust enough? I'm going to start looking at that possibility tonight.

Longer control arms = Mad camber y0

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Kinda like Wreck Racing's BMW, but all that camber and track on the back...

I think I understand your current plan (please correct me if I'm wrong): Buick engine + Buick trans + Buick axles + Buick knuckles means no modification of axles ($$$) necessary, and no moficiations to engine/trans/torque converter etc. Then you only have to modify Buick arms to fit Fiero subframe, custom engine mounts between Buick motor/trans and Fiero subframe, slot the holes in Fiero strut to Buick knuckle (unless they already fit??), and Buick steering arm adapts to Fiero track rod or whatever it's called. I think that would all work well.

In reply to maschinenbau :

I understand why my posts over the last 24 hours can be hard to follow. Even I am confused with the evolution from where I started....

The Plan As of Today: Buick engine + Buick trans + Fiero axles + Fiero knuckles. The transmission end of the axles are the same Buick vs Fiero. The knuckle end is smaller diameter and axles a little shorter on the Fiero.    Lengthen the Fiero control arms and track rods to compensate for the longer Buick transmission. Custom engine mounts between Buick motor/trans and Fiero subframe.

Evenings this week: Put bare Fiero cradle back in the car. Mock-up longer control arms to see how the wheels will align.

In reply to AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) :

Makes sense! Then your Fiero brakes and struts will carry over. I think the upper strut mount will handle the extra angle. If you're worried about cutting up an original Fiero control arm, you could build a custom tubular one. Those have bolt-in ball joints, so you could buy a set of those and a bushing kit, bolt those to cradle/knuckle and connect the dots with tube once the axle distance is correct.

AAZCD (Forum Supporter) said:

Stampie said:

In reply to AAZCD (Forum Supporter) :

 I even remember a rules thread that discussed trading labor for parts and I'm pretty sure it concluded with Tom agreeing that it was legit - and is a way that can add more to a car that is already at $2,000.

Not complaining or planning to game the system, but Budget seems like the most complicated part of a Challenge build.

This can't be right.  I trade my labor for money already.  Using this logic, I now have an unlimited supply of my own money for this project at a $0 budget hit.

Heck I can work 2 hrs at $50/hr, but a $75 part and claim $25 recoup while I'm at it using this very grey logic.  
 

I could come help you with your engine swap for a day, buy $400 in speed parts for my car, and it's a $0 budget hit too.  
 

This has to be wrong.  

Honestly, this is one of the issues I have with the challenge.  It's a game and hobby exercise, but the rules are drifting and so is expansion of the rules via grey areas.  It is cool that it pushes the boundaries of car performance on the cheap, but it's pretty far from the original.  And honestly $2000 in year 2000 is probably $4000 or more today.  The availability of decent project cars for $2000 now is approaching nil.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

your interpretation is off.  the explanation was that the challenger could trade their labor, at the prevailing minimum wage in their home state, as payment for a part they get from someone else. The dollar value of the labor goes into the budget as the price paid for that part. IE whiskey_business had a pallet of ChiCom turbuenos and an old stock car frame to chop up. i spent 4 hours cutting and stacking tubes, and he gave me 2 turbuenos for my effort. Minimum wage here in MI at the time was $9.50/hr.  My budget shows "2 turbuenos, $38 (4 hrs labor @ $9.50/hr)"