So what do you guys think of semi-restomods?

A friend is in the process of grafting a Karmann Ghia floor pan to a Miata drivetrain. It's requiring a 4-inch driveshaft extension, and the fenders will have to be flared 2 inches or so each way. He's going to try and keep it as low-key and tasteful as possible.

I for one think that it's pretty cool. We live in Northern California where unused Ghias sprout in driveways and backyards with regularity. If he was doing it to something with more scarcity, I'd feel that he was violating historic preservation, but bringing new life to a $1200 hulk works for me. What say? Thumbs up or down?

So, he's making a front engine, rear drive Karmann Ghia? Hmmm....

I'm way too big a fan of rear engined VWs to want that for myself. If he was using my opinion, I'd say no. But since I'm nobody and just one nobody at that, I say to for it!

Ps, it doesn't take much to get a great power-to-weight ratio with a ~2000cc VW motor. And they can be made to hold the road as well.

I dunno about the veedub motor. The impression that I get is that serious power only comes with considerable cost and/or compromise in reliability.

edit: I'm defining serious power as 140+HP.

You could almost say that what he's doing is taking a Miata and giving it a Ghia body more than the other way around. It will completely change the character of the vehicle. I applaud his restraint in not going the V8 route.

Ebony - I think of air cooled VWs as legitimate proletariat classics. So why do you think that they seem to be largely defined as a subculture apart from the regular vintage car crowd? The road rallys that I've been on have plenty of Porsches, but almost no dubs, yet I'd imagine that a robust series 4 engine and some discerning suspension and brake mods would make a Ghia comfortably run with practically any air-cooled 4-based vehicle.

Meh. His car, he can do what he pleases. If this is what makes you happy do it. I won't like it, but since you are not making it for my benefit that doesn't matter.

edit: FWIW, I'd far prefer the miata-ghia to ^^^^that thing.

If he's really wants a modern powerplant, why not got with a Subaru motor? Boxer 4, with really good power and Kennedy makes trans to engine plates.

Just a thought.

Otherwise, it's his car, he should do what he wants. Most Ghias aren't particularly collectible, despite what their owners might think.

Love them. Most classic beauty is only skin deep, might as well put something good under the skin.

Personally, I'd find the modern suspension and brakes as attractive as the more powerful engine. But I agree that there's a lot to be said for preserving the original configuration. There's an English guy (Rorty) who sells plans to convert old bugs to mid-engined. Personally I never found it attractive to put an engine in the backseat, but to each their own.

I wonder how well the engine will fit in the... uh, trunk.

This sounds like a great idea to me. I fully endorse it. I never liked the sound of those air-cooled engines except in a quaint sort of way. I think enough were made that ruining a classic isn't really a concern here.

Restomods can be overdone to the point of being silly, but this sounds like something that'll be a serious improvement while remaining tasteful.

Question: Will he use the extra space in the back to give the engine bay some usable trunk space? Our 818 project has no trunk (or glovebox), which makes even the simplest trips a logistical challenge. Taking two people and their helmets to an autocross is sounding tricky already.

Alan Cesar wrote: Our 818 project has no trunk (or glovebox), which makes even the simplest trips a logistical challenge. Taking two people and their helmets to an autocross is sounding tricky already.

I've had similar questions while day-dreaming about a Galek J-12 - which also has essentially no luggage space: Fab up a luggage rack that mounts via a quick-releases system on the rear deck area.

As far as the Ghia is concerened, I'm with the "it's his car" group. It's not like Ghias are uncommon nor are bastardized AC VW's. I also question how well the Miata engine will fit under that front lid. I'd only ask he make some accurate dimensional drawings before he starts cutting.

kreb wrote: Ebony - I think of air cooled VWs as legitimate proletariat classics. So why do you think that they seem to be largely defined as a subculture apart from the regular vintage car crowd?

Huh? I think you may have misread my post.

To sum it up: I wouldn't do it myself because I'm a big fan of rear-engined, air-cooled VW's but since its not mine, he should have at it!

Unsure how you read anything else in my initial reply.

Ian F wrote: As far as the Ghia is concerened, I'm with the "it's his car" group. It's not like Ghias are uncommon nor are bastardized AC VW's. I also question how well the Miata engine will fit under that front lid. I'd only ask he make some accurate dimensional drawings before he starts cutting.

Definitely.....the key is to do it without having to hack up the pretty front end.

I am 'resto-modding' right now, actually. Mine is MUCH more mild. Shaving the drip rails is pretty innocent. Changing the transmission and driveshaft to something more modern by a decade is pretty OK. I'm changing the steering wheel to something from a decade earlier, just for the look. I tend to think these things are fine (obviously) but when someone, say, welds an old pickup on the front end of a Grand-Am, well, we've gone too far. Stuff in the middle is tough. I think your buds plan is fine, a more modern driving experience in an old body. I like it.

ebonyandivory wrote: Huh? I think you may have misread my post. To sum it up: I wouldn't do it myself because I'm a big fan of rear-engined, air-cooled VW's but since its not mine, he should have at it! Unsure how you read anything else in my initial reply.

I was merely going on a tangent and was hoping that you'd educate me. I meant nothing negative by my reply. In what research that I've done, it seems that getting over 100 HP does in fact start getting pricey. I'd also like to see more air-cooled VWs at events, and was wondering if my observation that it's a separate subculture was a geographic anomaly, or something more widespread.

Responding to the other guy, it looks like he'll end up with a fairly cavernous boot for such a small car.

In reply to kreb:

I didn't take it as negative at all. I was just confused and still am as to how you assumed I felt a way that I did not even hint at feeling. And I don't feel the way you said I did either. I'm kind of a purist I guess. I'd rather see any old car with the power train it left the factory with although I appreciate all the LSx swaps I see spreading like wildfire!

Personally, I don't consider that a restomod. To me a restomod is keeping the old school looks and adding modern equipment to make it up to date with current tech. Things like disc brakes, more modern engine/trans, along that line. Like swapping in a Porsche drivetrain or as mentioned the Subaru.

I would classify that along the lines of modified or similar to building a kit car. Stretching a Gia body to fit a Miata platform. Sounds to me he's even going about it like a VW kit.

Not that I'm against it. Would like to see it done. I appreciate good work and craftsmanship whether I agree with it or not. I do think it would be cool to be driving a Karman Gia that handles and has the power of the Miata. Not that Miata power is a lot but it's more than what the Gia originally had. Would surprise a lot of people on the street or track.

This is MUCH more my idea of a resto-mod. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VS4UPQvox6I

But again, it's not mine so who cares what I say? If he wants it, he should build it and drive the wheels off it!

kreb wrote: In what research that I've done, it seems that getting over 100 HP does in fact start getting pricey.

And swapping a rear engined air cooled Ghia body onto a Miata wont?

The 1914 engine can be tailored to make 130hp, 130 lb tq, with the right combination of parts. Dual carbs are a must, along with a good set of heads and the proper cam. For the person on a limited budget, this is the way to go for sure. Compression ratios around 8.0 to 9.0 around work very well on these engines, and they will have an excellent power band if built correctly.

130 hp in a Ghia will surprise anyone in a Miata!

Interesting. You took that response directly off of the DDR Racing engines site where they will sell you the turnkey engine that you describe for $6,200. For another $2,800 they can up the ante' another 100 HP.

Yes thats exactly what I did! And I had it in quotations and gave credit to the site but the formatting in the post made it look awful.

So is your friends plan to buy his Karmann Ghia bodied Miata already fully completed by a hot rod shop or is he planning to do it mostly himself?

I'm guessing the latter... In which case a 130hp VW motor, built at home with most of the work done by the owner WOULD NOT COST $6,200!!!

I know that kind of kills your attempt to make my suggestion sound silly but I had to point out the obvious.

You obviously have your own opinion and don't appear to accept mine perhaps because its not what you wanted to hear so I'll just stay out of it. I wish your friend luck, I'm sure whatever he decides to do will turn out great!

In reply to ebonyandivory: My friend is already underway. I've tried to get him to post a build log, but I don't think that he welcomes the scrutiny. I'm just trying to get a sense of this brave new (old) world of aircooleds. I grew up in Berkeley, CA where I was generally contemptuous of bugs and their extended family. As an adult, now that the Hippies have moved on to Subarus and Toyotas, I find VWs charming. I'm good with metal fabrication, but relatively raw mechanically, so the thought of learning to work on motors starting with something as simple as an AC is appealing.

edit: Goodness, you seem mighty quick to take issue. Since you self-identified as an aircooled aficionado, I thought that you might want to share your knowledge and experience. I wasn't trying to make you look bad by noting where that quote came from. It's kind of funny that I stumbled over it while browsing. But at this point, nevermind.

I dig it. I'm a big fan of classic looks with updated function. I have a similar level of rework in mind for my 2002, and the main concern I have is that it may lose character. It certainly won't feel the same as a nearer-to-stock 2002, but I hope it will feel similarly direct and mechanical, which is down to execution.

I endorse the heck out of your friend's Ghiata if he's thought through what he's building and it's what he wants!

My Ghia project . . .all gone !

OK, now that's just pure insanity!

Do you have more info?