Per Schroeder
Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director
7/17/08 11:53 a.m.

I'm working on a story for the November Classic Motorsports and I started thinking about the classics I've had and the things that make them show their age...That one little thing (or many little things) that make you think, "ayup, this is a 30-40-50 year old car."

I'll go first:

Volvo 142: steering effort Alfa GTV: steering feel and seating position/funky ergonomics Porsche 911: 901-shifting, sputtery at times MFI.

Your thoughts? Or is that just character to be enjoyed?

aeronca65t
aeronca65t New Reader
7/17/08 12:13 p.m.

Sure:

TR-3---Steering effort (Did people have bigger biceps in the 50s?)

AH-100/4---Ditto

MGA---I love 'em, but the rear spring rate. (Does this thing have "hardtail" rear suspension?)

Metropolitan---"Styling" on the upper part of the door (OK, who thought that looked good?)

Austin A-40---"Brakes", such as they were (hydraulic fronts and mechanical rears)

Jaguar XK-E---dashboard layout (Let's see....what do all these random switches do again?)

MGB---steering wheel position (Feels like it's about 4 inches from your nose)

Any ALFA---steering wheel position (Feels like it's about 4 feet from your nose)

Newer SAABs---Igniton key position (Oh, it goes there!)

TR3only
TR3only New Reader
7/17/08 12:14 p.m.

Obviously, all those sports cars/roadsters with the "cut-down" doors.

914 Porsche...looks like no other car, and with it's air-cooled mutterings, sounds like no other car.

E-type Jag...those little slivers of chrome would no longer be considered adequate as bumpers, after 1972. (Same thing goes for a "Bug-eyed" Sprite.)

Oh, yeah, if you really want a dated looked Volvo...you must mention the PV544.

There are probably others, I need to really think about the question.

Tim Baxter
Tim Baxter Online Editor
7/17/08 12:21 p.m.

I can forgive almost anything styling-wise. Even the oddest ideas of the 50s and 60s are no weirder or dumber than some more recent cars.

Just speaking generally, things that date cars for me:

  • huge steering wheels (to try to help with the heavy steering)
  • poor seats. It seems in the 50s, if you covered any seat-like surface in leather, you were all set
  • inadequate AC and/or ventilation.
  • poor ergonmics/poorly placed and labeled controls
  • choke knobs
racerdave600
racerdave600 New Reader
7/17/08 12:25 p.m.

Where to start...

My current cars: Porsche 944 (assuming its not too new) wind noise around the doors, even with new gaskets, squeaking hatch.

'71 240Z - really long shifter throws, thin seats, steering effort at slow speeds, light at high speed. Ability to see the ground when looking at the engine compartment.

'85 MR2 - wind noise (see Porsche above), very '80's dash (should come with a set of parachute pants and Flock of Seagulls cassette as OE equipment)

other memorables -

'61 Fiat 600D - well, everything. Tiny motor, metal so thin you could dent by leaning to hard, no heater, it ducted heat from the engine compartment, bottom mounted pedals, thin white steering wheel (great steering feel by the way)

'70 Boss Mustang - no brakes to speak of, vague heavy steering, 267,000 turns lock to lock on the steering wheel, massive cockpit heat, upright vinyl seats with no adjustments

'67 Cougar XR7-GT 390. See Mustang above, only total no-feel power steering, and leather instead of vinyl. Would spin the tires through all 4 gears though.

'67 Triumph TR4A - Steering wheel only inches from your chest with seat all the way back, and it flexed like overcooked pasta. Corner too fast and the doors would pop open from chassis flex. Rain would blow into the car with the vent open in a thunderstorm. Weekly nut and bolt check reminded you this was not a Honda. Roadside repairs (including head gaskets) reminded you this was not a Honda, pieces flying off the car reminded you this was not a Honda, the incredible sounds going through tunnels reminded you this was not a Honda!

I have plenty more, but this should be enough. My thoughts are that it all adds character to the cars. Today's cars, even good ones like Porsches and BMW's come across as bland, as they really don't require any driver involvement. The car does everything for you with traction control, shifting, and even telling you its time to service, which you then take to the dealer. A single armed chimp could look good driving one up to about 8/10ths, which come to think of it, I may have passed him this morning on the way to work!

Per Schroeder
Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director
7/17/08 1:43 p.m.

Looks like steering effort, steering feel, steering position are the top-sellers....with brakes in second.

Per Schroeder
Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director
7/17/08 1:44 p.m.

Oh, and I like Saab's key position. I'm a little bummed that I took it out of the rally car in favor of a switch/button on the dash..

Tim Baxter
Tim Baxter Online Editor
7/17/08 2:26 p.m.

Saab's key position is brilliant.

Steering wheels -- MGAs had 'em right in your chest. Really dates the car.

ae86andkp61
ae86andkp61 New Reader
7/17/08 9:09 p.m.

Thinking generally about the classics I've driven, (Alfas, Spridget, old Volvos, a Lotus here and there, etc.) there are a few others that haven't come up yet, like widely-spaced gear ratios, or just oddly-spaced ratios. New cars don't have that same, "oop...uphill...it's already sounding frantic, but I gotta hang in there for at least another 1000rpm before I can change up!" driving experience. Applies mostly to smallbore and torque-deficient cars.

The other one that really makes you aware you aren't in a modern car is the overrun; none of this injectors-not-firing....the pop and burble of carbs can't be mistaken for modern.

Hmmmm...not only large steering wheels, but thin-rimmed large steering wheels.

Painted metal panels (or dash) visible in the interior is usually a pretty sure bet you are in a classic. Same goes for real wood on the dash, shift knob or steering wheel.

Luke
Luke HalfDork
7/18/08 2:40 a.m.

Probably not quite what you're looking for, but I find old cars interiors smell fantastic, and are often unique to each marque/era. Sitting in my friend's 80s Alfa, it smells the same as my 80s Alfa - a comforting scent of fake wood and vinyl trim. Lean into the open window of a Jag XK or a Bentley, and you'll get a wonderful waft of wood and aged leather.

Among the more obvious, a distinct lack of electrical gadgets, (or, in the case of some 80s Japanese cars - an abundance of silly/useless electrical gadgets.)

Back to smells, you know you're in a classic when you give it a bit too much stick at low revs and flood the carb(s), resulting in a heady whiff of petrol fumes.

foxtrapper
foxtrapper SuperDork
7/18/08 6:20 a.m.

The big steering wheel and the metal dashboard are all quick giveaways to me.

Foot actuated high beam switch.

Chrome buckled seat belts, if they are there at all. Seatbelts that you tightened.

Almost all of them had seats you sat on, not in.

A night drive with those old incadecent headlights is always worthwhile, if for nothing else than to remind you why you replaced all yours with halogen bulbs.

Vent doors down at your feet. Those were pretty nice. Almost made up for the lack of a/c.

Shinsen774
Shinsen774 Reader
7/18/08 7:06 a.m.

I agree with the smell factor. I love the smell.

docsaab
docsaab New Reader
7/18/08 8:02 a.m.

I have found non standard controls ,reverse on a Studebaker automatic is all the way down on the column shifter.Big square thin steering wheel with mammoth effort needed no power steering,am only radio,bench seats,no seat belts, vent knobs and vent windows,solid lifter clatter, b 52 fan noise,NVH levels real high but very engauging. The old cars were easily found in Parking lot they had style and various shape/proportion.You can sit on a fender!!!Not thatI recommend that, but my cars are drivers not queens,tiny windshield wipers also common

racerdave600
racerdave600 New Reader
7/18/08 9:53 a.m.

I was also thinking of smell, that oh so pleasant mixture of leather, wood and mold, the kind of smell only a British roadster in everyday use can give you!

Jack
Jack SuperDork
7/18/08 10:32 a.m.

The sweet smell of warm oil and pungent smell of the crankcase block vent after you shut down.

The cardboard under the car to protect the garage floor from drips; even though my TR3 only drips from the spin-on oil filter adapter.

Zerk fittings.

Seeing the puff of horsehair dust shoot out from the seat bottom when you sit down. I will get to rebuilding those seats soon. . . .

Side curtains in the trunk, 'cause those new-fangled roll up windows are just a passing trend.

Jack

Ian F
Ian F New Reader
7/18/08 12:14 p.m.

Yet another comment about steering effort and feel. The Volvo 1800ES was a car way ahead of its time: EFI, 4-wheel power disc brakes, nice seats, reasonably laid out controls... but go to park it and even the 14+" steering wheel doesn't seem big enough. The car's poor front suspension geometry is worth noting as well...

aeronca65t
aeronca65t New Reader
7/19/08 4:56 a.m.

The sweet smell of warm oil and pungent smell of the crankcase block vent after you shut down.

I kind of forgot about that...my MGB smells like that all the time (my Miata is smell-less)

The Volvo 1800ES was a car way ahead of its time......... but go to park it and even the 14+" steering wheel doesn't seem big enough....

I had a P1800 with a Ford V8..... a muscle-builder!

Foot actuated high beam switch.

Yes! And to further date myself, a foot-actuated starter switch (like in my old Ford flathead pickup).

Thin steering wheels are metal dashboards are good ones too.

And hinged quarter vent windows (we called them "spittin' windows")

I guess we could even mention semaphore trafficators and crank starter handles (like my old Austin A-40)

Leo  Basile
Leo Basile None
7/19/08 9:51 p.m.

Engine oil lubing the front supension on the Morgans. Maybe fly-off handbrakes. Dont forget weather equipment that is removed from the car, not folded up.

Leo

rconlon
rconlon Reader
7/21/08 12:22 p.m.

There is something that always seems to me a part of the Classic/vintage experience. Vibrations. Each make and model have their unique vibrations whether at idle or at speed - often both. There is always a buzz or shake or rattle that new cars just don't do.

Cheers Ron

racerdave600
racerdave600 New Reader
7/21/08 1:57 p.m.

After a stint with I-Drive this weekend, another thought came to me...besides what crap I-Drive really is...you know you're in a vintage car when it has no screen for navigation, no electrics for the seat, wheel, and sunroof, no seat heaters, eletric/remote trunk release, dual climate controls, and multiple airbags.

I haven't been in the 5 series in a while, and it really is amazing how different new cars than those of just a few years ago, let alone, 30, 40 plus.

Per Schroeder
Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director
7/21/08 3:12 p.m.

I'm not talking about something that will tell you that a car is older....but maybe what has now been fixed with newer cars.

My list would include (now that I think about it)

steering effort brake effort/feel ergonomics smells vibrations.

That said, a well-tuned 911 Porsche is pretty darn good in many of those areas---but then has issues with the shift vagueness.

Damn, this is making me want to go find another street/daily driver classic.

mattmacklind
mattmacklind SuperDork
7/21/08 9:57 p.m.

I think its time for

Photobucket

Coupefan
Coupefan New Reader
7/21/08 10:34 p.m.

The controls and the ergonomics of such. It's like comparing a spaceship on a campy 50's sci-fi movie to one of the more modern sci-fi shows.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 New Reader
7/22/08 8:33 p.m.

""ayup, this is a 30-40-50 year old car."

TR6, because it has parts from a TR4, TR3, and a TR2. That's kinda like a 30-40-50 year old car.

Actually, the real (although veneered) wood dash that you can tell is real because of the splinters.

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